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Yeah everything fine this end thesightless. . . someone i know got caught up in the blast, only minor injuries thank god from flying glass.
My respect has to go out to the brave security guards at the club who refused entrance to the bombers - can you imagine the devestation if they detenated actually inside the club!
What's brave about turning someone away? Its not like they *knew* he had bombs on him or they would've stopped him.
Israel needs to stop killing palestinians and only then will this shit stop. Give them back their land and make a fucking border that no side can cross. but NO, thats not possible. Violence breeds violence man, its both sides fault.
Uh Oh....I sense someone's gonna have a fit over this...
Nice black 'n white thinking sheryar, but it's a little more complicated than that. Not going to have that discussion again, maybe Dave can bring up the energy to tell you some...
What's brave about turning someone away? Its not like they *knew* he had bombs on him or they would've stopped him.
Israel needs to stop killing palestinians and only then will this shit stop. Give them back their land and make a fucking border that no side can cross. but NO, thats not possible. Violence breeds violence man, its both sides fault.
It takes two hands to clap
Although Israeli door staff do not do physical searches at clubs they have been trained to spot potential 'troublemakers' - obviously with any form of arbitary selection sometimes you are right and sometimes you are wrong. On this occasion they were right, the murderer was refused entrance and blew himself up outside the club.
So you believe that in a time when Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders have made moves to end the cycle of needless violence on both sides that one side should continue with the campaign of murder? This homicide attack was carried out more to destabalise the legitimate authority of Abu Mazen then anything else. The fact that five Israelis were murdered is a bonus of the bombers.
The only point you made that makes any sense at all was your violence breed violence one - you're right both sides have been at fault over the past four years; both sides have been involved with actions which are deplorable; thats why both sides are now committed to changing the status quo. But this action was carried out by people who do not want peace. By people who don't care about treaties and legitimate government.
Like violence breeds violence, ignorance breeds ignorance - the bulk of your comments were just that ignorant.
Well, I don't really have anything to add... I'm just glad Dave is OK... On the other hand , I sincerely wish, that this isn't going to stop the peace process, and after Israel's initial "rage" it seems that the peace talks are going to continue. So let's keep our fingers crossed, shall we... :wink:
We shall boldly dance, where no man has danced before..."
i only made two points, one was that the security guards werent brave and the other was the violence breeds violence comment.
what "bulk" of my comments are ignorant?
israel is just as big a terrorist as those suicide bombers. watch al jazeera sometimes man, its not all peaches and cake on the other side of the fence! its more blown off heads and arms and legs and RUBBLE FOR HOUSES.
you said:
"So you believe that in a time when Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders have made moves to end the cycle of needless violence on both sides that one side should continue with the campaign of murder?"
its fine when israel does it!! incursions into the west bank! the gaza strip! bombings, blockades on the palestinian leaders MOVEMENTS. Lets lock them up and not let them MOVE!!
how come more palestinians have died than israelies?
how come palestinian men get taken away in the middle of the night?
whats worse? instant death in a fucking nightclub or being taken away from your family and never seeing them again?
you have NO IDEA what you're talking about mr dave. just because you live there doesnt make you an expert on the scene.
its the other way around.
this war will continue till way past our lifetimes, and its because of ignorant people like you and murderers like the ones that blew up outside the club.
NOBODY IS RIGHT HERE.
THE SECURITY GUARDS WEREN'T BRAVE.
IF THEY WERE BRAVE THAN THE BOMBERS WERE BRAVER!
so lets not pretend that things are any other way, because they ARENT.
dude:
i only made two points, one was that the security guards werent brave and the other was the violence breeds violence comment.
what "bulk" of my comments are ignorant?
nobody argued, that violence breeds violence, but you were simplyfying the entire matter. However, it could be argued whether those guards were brave, but since neither you nor me were there to see the actual event occur, so there's no point in arguing... So, in my opinion at least some of your claims are true, until your latter post.
Originally posted by sheryar
israel is just as big a terrorist as those suicide bombers. watch al jazeera sometimes man, its not all peaches and cake on the other side of the fence! its more blown off heads and arms and legs and RUBBLE FOR HOUSES.
Actually, I do not regard Israel as a terrorist, although I think it holds a lot of responsibility that the conflict still lasts. You do not have to watch Al Jazeera to see the desperate conditions Palestinians have to live in. But it's not entirely Israel's fault. For example, you don't see Sharon transferring Israelian funds to his off-shore accounts, while Arafat's fortune was on the other hand estimated at around 1 billion $. Imagine how this money could be spent to improve the conditions in Palestine. My point here is that Palestinian government was trully corrupt and it didn't yield much power. In the end Arafat couldn't even control even the extremist organistions he himself "created", so I've come to agree with people who say Arafat wasn't the right partner to negotiate peace. And there is one important difference between Israelis and Palestinians like Dave one said:
"When an extremist in Israel does an extremist action, most of the public judges his actions and he is trialed in the court of law, while the terrorists are considered as heroes among Palestinian population."
Originally posted by sheryar
you said:
"So you believe that in a time when Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders have made moves to end the cycle of needless violence on both sides that one side should continue with the campaign of murder?"
its fine when israel does it!! incursions into the west bank! the gaza strip! bombings, blockades on the palestinian leaders MOVEMENTS. Lets lock them up and not let them MOVE!!
who said it's fine israel does all the things you've mentioned. As I know Dave disaprooves most of the things you've mentioned. Since the election of the new Palestinian leadership, Israel has ceased his most of its/her (:wink: @ dave ) military action and showed quite a couple of signs of good will. So, why should Palestinians continue with the terrorist attacks? :? And as much as I disagreed with the Israel's countermeasures (just because violence breeds violence), they seem to work, because the number of terrorist attacks has greatly decreased since Israel began to act more agressively. And let me ask you one thing. If you were the Israeli prime minister, what would you do to provide safety of Israel???
Originally posted by sheryar
how come more palestinians have died than israelies?
how come palestinian men get taken away in the middle of the night?
Imagena what the death toll would would be if both sides had the same arsenal...
Originally posted by sheryar
whats worse? instant death in a fucking nightclub or being taken away from your family and never seeing them again?
It's idiotic to argue which is worse. I would never like to expirience either of them... And it's not as simple as you think. It may be easier for you if you die in an instant, but it's the same for your family and friends, cause they also never see you again... So, I'm not going to argue on that one.
Originally posted by sheryar
you have NO IDEA what you're talking about mr dave. just because you live there doesnt make you an expert on the scene.
its the other way around.
Although I have my differences with dave, I learned quite a couple of things from him and I regard him as an intelligent man, who has every right to his own opinion, which is mostly justified (in other words; his opinion is not unbiased, but I bet most of the people would feel and think the same way if they lived in the same conditions). And what makes you such an expert on the topic, anyway?
Originally posted by sheryar
this war will continue till way past our lifetimes, and its because of ignorant people like you and murderers like the ones that blew up outside the club.
NOBODY IS RIGHT HERE.
THE SECURITY GUARDS WEREN'T BRAVE.
IF THEY WERE BRAVE THAN THE BOMBERS WERE BRAVER!
so lets not pretend that things are any other way, because they ARENT.
Thank you o wise ONE... Can you please share some more future with us, humble ignorants.
We shall boldly dance, where no man has danced before..."
hah, all im saying is that no one side is right. if i had my way the UN would have rolled into palestine right upto israel and turned it into one big country/peace keeping zone/
i just get antsy when doormen are called brave and the poor sod who's off to blow himself up is called a cowardly act. its not as cowardly as it is brave: if you were on the other side of the fence.
so no one side is right when it comes to killing. there is no "other side of the fence".
people need to learn to all sit on the fence together,
but that's a dream.
oh and i'm _not_ an expert, im just giving you a third person perspective on things. dave is obviously biased as its his country thats getting attacked. it clouds his intelligence and judgement on things.
but dont worry, the palestinians are probably just as biased, if not more, than you are.
the palestinians didnt wake up one day and decide to start ravaging israel in any way they could, even if it meant suicide. israel has disposed to too many sons, daughters, fathers and mothers and now they're suffering the wrath of pissed off family members and just plain pissed off people. terror orgs benefit from israels raping of palestinian authority because they can recruit more people into their causes.
its one horrible vicious cycle and all im saying is that no side is right here and that both sides are just as worse as the other.
i only made two points, one was that the security guards werent brave and the other was the violence breeds violence comment.
Tell me, what?s it like being a security guard in your country? Securing a bus station, a night club, a shop, a caf?, a restaurant, a shopping mall, a hospital, a school, a doctors surgery. I?ll tell you what it?s like here. Here it?s the first line of defence against cowardly homicide bombers. Here, when you?re a security guard, and you turn someone who you think is suspicious away from entering the building you are guarding you do so knowing that if your instinct is right, and indeed the person you are turning away has strapped to his or her chest 10 or 20 pounds of explosives, then you know the likely hood is that they are going to detonate it there and the, especially if there is a queue. So yes, I call the security guards brave and make no bones about it.
Originally posted by sheryar
israel is just as big a terrorist as those suicide bombers. watch al jazeera sometimes man, its not all peaches and cake on the other side of the fence! its more blown off heads and arms and legs and RUBBLE FOR HOUSES.
You don?t have to lecture me on what?s on the other side of the fence ? I know. I have friends there I haven?t seen since 2000 only because they are Palestinian and I?m Israeli.
As for watching al jazeera, well I guess if I want to watch fabricated news stories I could always watch Israeli news. Get real dude, both the Israeli and Arab press are biased one way or another. When it comes to reporting the ?intifada? you can?t take either of them seriously.
Originally posted by sheryar
you said:
"So you believe that in a time when Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders have made moves to end the cycle of needless violence on both sides that one side should continue with the campaign of murder?"
its fine when israel does it!! incursions into the west bank! the gaza strip! bombings, blockades on the palestinian leaders MOVEMENTS. Lets lock them up and not let them MOVE!!
You know nothing about me or what I believe; you?ve automatically assumed that because I?m Israeli I must spend my free time propping a right wing government and going target shooting every weekend in the occupied territories.
So, I?ll lay out my position for you very carefully, in simple terms, to save you going back through previous posts of mine on the subject.
My countrys occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is illegal; the Jewish settlement there are illegal; the fence, although in principle I approve of it, should be built on the Israeli side of what internationally is deemed the green line. Successive Israeli governments have behaved in ways I often wish they hadn?t.
But, you miss the point entirely. The point about this bombing was that it was carried out after a process had been entered into by the democratically elected Palestinian and Israeli leadership. This attack was carried out for one reason and one reason only, to weaken Abu Mazen, the democratically elected leader of the Palestinian people. Regardless of what I think of past action from both sides we had entered a process to stop the needless and senseless killing of innocent men, women and children from both sides.
Originally posted by sheryar
how come more palestinians have died than israelies?
This ones easy, Israel has an equipped army. Simple! If you come at me with a Molotov cocktail all I care about is stopping you; with what ever I have at my disposal! It?s war. If you want to participate in such things don?t come crying to me that more people on your side have died than on my side.
Originally posted by sheryar
how come palestinian men get taken away in the middle of the night?
How come Israeli children get murdered on buses on their way to and from school? How come Israeli women get murdered out shopping? How come the citizens of Sderot (a city in Israel proper) for four years had a barrage of rockets thrown at them? Well, how comes?
Originally posted by sheryar
whats worse? instant death in a fucking nightclub or being taken away from your family and never seeing them again?
Never seeing them again . . . when you say never do you really mean until Israel exchanges prisoners for the bodies of dead soldiers, or until they release 1000?s of prisoners to show good faith and a belief in the peace process?
Or are you implying that the Israeli army rounds people up and executes them?
Originally posted by sheryar
you have NO IDEA what you're talking about mr dave. just because you live there doesnt make you an expert on the scene.
its the other way around.
this war will continue till way past our lifetimes, and its because of ignorant people like you and murderers like the ones that blew up outside the club.
NOBODY IS RIGHT HERE.
THE SECURITY GUARDS WEREN'T BRAVE.
IF THEY WERE BRAVE THAN THE BOMBERS WERE BRAVER!
so lets not pretend that things are any other way, because they ARENT.
No need to call me Mr Dave, Dave or David will do just fine; I don?t need a title!
I don?t claim to be an expert on the Middle East conflict; however, something tells me that I do know what I am talking about. Unlike others I am not blinded one way or another and realise that both sides are at fault for nearly forty years of hell for both Israelis and Palestinians.
This war will only continue for as long as it?s being propped up by ignorant arrogant people that only believe ?the other side? is to blame. This conflict will continue until rational reasonable human beings from both sides raise their voices and say enough is enough; no more murder, no more senseless killings.
This conflict will continue for as long an morons make idiotic statements proclaiming that strapping a bomb to your chest and taking the lives of men women and children is a brave thing ? something I am pleased to say is not being said by this democratically elected Palestinian leadership!
Originally posted by sheryar
hah, all im saying is that no one side is right. if i had my way the UN would have rolled into palestine right upto israel and turned it into one big country/peace keeping zone/
The last thing this region needs is for the UN to interfere any more then it is. If you want to know why so many Palestinians suffer poverty in the West Bank and Gaza Strip look at why they have been kept in refuge camps since 1948 ? a whole 19 years before Israel occupied those territories.
Originally posted by sheryar
oh and i'm _not_ an expert, im just giving you a third person perspective on things. dave is obviously biased as its his country thats getting attacked. it clouds his intelligence and judgement on things.
You know nothing about me or what can cloud my judgement; keep your idiotic thoughts about others (ME) to yourself. Your implication that just because I live here I can?t ?see the whole picture? is as nonsensical as saying a white South African under the apartheid regime couldn?t logically see that apartheid was wrong, Get real!
Originally posted by sheryar
its one horrible vicious cycle and all im saying is that no side is right here and that both sides are just as worse as the other.
Here I will agree with you ? although I?m not convinced you truly believe that both sides are at fault as you seem only to condemn one side in your argument.
May I add dear sheryar, that Dave has provided the active posters on the political forum with sources and links for his stories and opinions from both sides: if you ever find an unbiased Israeli here, it's Dave.
In my personal opinion, those Security Guards ARE brave: in my country they don't run the risk of being blown to pieces because of some ideological dispute. You put those numbskull gorilla's we use here in the position of the first Israeli SG, and he's gonna shit down his pantz, I'll tell you that. I don't believe for a second the SG's in Israel are as badly trained as they are here: cos in Israel they have to deal with REAL threats, not some drunken kids making trouble.
Not trying to bitch here, but you could try and ease down a little...you seem a little emotionally affected by some quotes: don't take it personal dude!
i just get antsy when doormen are called brave and the poor sod who's off to blow himself up is called a cowardly act. its not as cowardly as it is brave: if you were on the other side of the fence.
oh and im sorry if ive offended anyone.
i hope ive made myself clear.
share a fence?
even by making your self clear you still offended me..
killing yourself, and killing innocent people who have nothing to do with what there gov't is doing, is the most fucked up thing i ever heard. the kids a fucking pussy and drives me nuts when they do this.
Don't post anything you wouldn't want yo mamma or the 'feds' to read.
i dont have the time or patience to have to explain why the act of strapping a bomb to yourself is more brave than standing outside a club and sending people home.
its a question of perspective and you guys just cant see it any other way.
these suicide bombers dont have any other way to attack back, and the israeli govt has killed a _lot_ of familiy members over the last 40 odd years. generations have grown up with night raids, tank attacks and occupation along with a LOT of innocents dying or just being plain taken away. it doesnt mean shit to them if a couple of innocents die on the other side: they grew up with it and its been done to them all their lives.
these guys dont mind blowing up to make a point.
its brave in my opinion. braver than what israel does.
its the underdog fighting back any way it can. if the israeli govt hadnt been raping up palestine with support from uncle sam things might have been different and more border to border.
one side throws rocks whilst the other drops bombs.
im not supporting these terrorists, and im not saying that killing innocent people is fine.
all im saying is that no one side is right here and it has to stop.
israel isnt no victim of terror. and the actual terrorists are making full use of israels screwups to promote themselves to the young people of palestine. lose a dad? come lets get back at those bastards that took him away from you. we'll gain the glory of god too!
oh and im not getting emotional about anything other than the fact that a friggin doorman is being called brave while the poor guy who's blowing himself up to make a point, a desperate point, is called cowardly. its not like every israeli bullet fired makes its way into some terrorists head, they've killed more innocents than any friggin terrorists, and they didnt kill themselves in the process, they were behind their cockpits and in their apcs and tanks with ARMOR around them and bombs to drop and bullets to fire.
wtf does the mossad do anyway? i wouldnt be suprised if they're behind half the supposed suicide bombings themselves as a means to continue the conflict and to kill more palestinians and take more land from them.
if people want to get offended by what im saying than they can sod off. i take just as much offense in reading some of the horseshit thats posted up there. dave might be unbiased and a wonderful supporter of Points In General with articles and facts but there's no way in hell im believing that those guards were braver than the guy who blew up. or that israel is some victim of terror and is doing the right thing.
But i refuse to call someone who's goal is to take away as many innocent lives as possible brave. I condemn any similar act from both sides, plain and simple.
Furthermore: I CAN see it the other way, but I also see those suicide bombers being instruments to people who do not want the peace process to get a grip on things. Most of those bombers have been influenced, even brainwashed by the clergy: it is not hard to see these people have been influenced by the violence and the loss of family members and friends, but instead of being encouraged by those they respect most to choose for peace, they are encouraged to choose for violence. And that pisses me off more than I can say.
Your adoration is misplaced, and based on the wrong thought that those suicide bombers fight back the only way they can, while there is, for your information, a peace process going on: any act of violance can only hamper that, not support it! So if any potential suicide bomber wants a better future, he might be better off giving himself to the cause of peace, not that of death and disruption.
Though, as stated before, it is the person behind the ideology I hate most, not the people who have been turned into their instruments: it's hard to make a sound judgment of your position or a situation if you don't have access to information and education, or just one single and biased source.
i dont have the time or patience to have to explain why the act of strapping a bomb to yourself is more brave than standing outside a club and sending people home.
Educate me, go on. . . why is brave to kill innocent party goers then to turn away a homicide bomber.
Originally posted by sheryar
its a question of perspective and you guys just cant see it any other way.
Actually my friend, i think its you who only sees it one way. I recognise the fact that successive governments in my country have behaved in the most appaling way and that one person dead is one person to many. I also recgonise the fact that homicide bombers are manipulated by others who have a sole agenda of destabilising any form of peace process. You seem to only recognise the fact that israel is bad and palestine is good!
Originally posted by sheryar
generations have grown up with night raids, tank attacks and occupation along with a LOT of innocents dying or just being plain taken away.
Again my friend if you are accusing Israel of arbitary kidnappings and assinations wheres your proof! Go one. Where have innocent men and women been taken away never to reappear. This is a serious allegation you are making. Prove it.
Originally posted by sheryar
these guys dont mind blowing up to make a point.
its brave in my opinion. braver than what israel does.
So you believe its brave to arbitarily murder innocent people. Bit hypocritical of you isn't it. By this arguement you obviously support the murders who flew planes into the towers, blew up a Bali nightclub and desimated the Madrid railways.
Originally posted by sheryar
its the underdog fighting back any way it can. if the israeli govt hadnt been raping up palestine with support from uncle sam things might have been different and more border to border.
one side throws rocks whilst the other drops bombs.
The underdog here has undertaken a political process to ensure peace for the palestinian people. Are you saying that Abu Mazen has no right to negotiate on behalf of Palestinians in a peace process. Are you saying that only murders can bring an end to nearly 40 years of occupation and that the political process means nothing at all?
And for you information we dont drob bombs. . . .targetted missiles maybe, bombs no! Fire bullets yes. But then we get fired at too, its not just stones, stop watching al jazeera dude, actually see what goes on in the west bank first hand!
Originally posted by sheryar
wtf does the mossad do anyway? i wouldnt be suprised if they're behind half the supposed suicide bombings themselves as a means to continue the conflict and to kill more palestinians and take more land from them.
Mossad have no remit for opperations in Israel and the Occupied Territories. You clearly mean the Shin Beit. And you are one ignorant and stupid fuck if you seriously believe that Israeli will kill Israeli just to continue the occupation. You know up until here i really was prepared to listen to your arguements, but you clearly know fuck all.
Simply put, in language you can understand. YES. There is no way this country, or people acting on its behalf, will spend four years blowing up its own citizens.
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So let's keep our fingers crossed, shall we... :wink:
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