USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

[filthy]

I often wonder why you americans think that you are the most democratic country on earth, i mean what do you compare to; Iraq??? For many of us european's you simply are some kind of world police and when you interact it is not seldom because your personal interest. You act because you have the means for it and also for your countrys benfit. Thats how i see it and many ppls with me. The way you interact with world politics is in many ways undemocratic! You allow your government to ship ppl to other countries where they can be submitted to torture.. guilty or not! And thats the exact same reason you have for invadng countries!? The doublestandards of the US are for me very strange. I wonder.. do you all think that you are doing good or are you only looking after your interests???

What do you say. Are you in the worlds best intrest?


...one more thing how many of you have the interest in the rest of the world to be able to recogize even one other country on the world map?

[toasty]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

Let's make one thing perfectly clear from the outset. There is a difference between the people of the US and the administration at its head. If you look at most opinion polls, you'll find that despite the fact that W won the last election, his policies rarely enjoy significantly more than 50% approval. In most cases, roughly half of the country disagrees with what he's doing. We voted, and for reasons I'm still scratching my head about, the country decided to stick with W. It doesn't mean that we all have to like it, and it doesn't mean that we all agree with the things he's up to.

With regard to the torture, I'd have to agree that we haven't exactly set a shining example here. Not something I'm real happy about, and I'm sure I'm not alone here.

Are we trying to do good or are we trying to look over our own best interests? Probably both. This just in. Frankly, there are a limited number of countries in the world that do anything but the latter.

I don't like a lot of what has happened on W's watch and I don't think we're perfect, but I still would rather live in the US than anywhere else. You know what I do about it? I actively participate in the political process. I vote. I talk to people. And I do these things in the hopes that the next time we get to pick our leaders, we collectively make a better choice. That, my friend, is what democracy is all about.

[thesightless]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?



how long's it been now?>??????

hell, i didnt vote for bush but i still stand behind him, and even more so admire him for at least having convictions and a hope for a better future. he took action, not everyone agreed. kerry would still be dancing around the issue i think.

and one more thing, everything toasty said is 100% true. democracy isnt about whats fair or what's right, its more about everyone having a voice, to further this fact , polls before the afghan invasion had, AT POINTS, over 72% of our country all for the invasion. participation in choosing your officials is the heart of the term, our opinions reflect that we do indeed have a different culture than you do.

[Sinisterbeatz]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

I often wonder why you americans think that you are the most democratic country on earth, i mean what do you compare to; Iraq??? For many of us european's you simply are some kind of world police and when you interact it is not seldom because your personal interest. You act because you have the means for it and also for your countrys benfit. Thats how i see it and many ppls with me. The way you interact with world politics is in many ways undemocratic! You allow your government to ship ppl to other countries where they can be submitted to torture.. guilty or not! And thats the exact same reason you have for invadng countries!? The doublestandards of the US are for me very strange. I wonder.. do you all think that you are doing good or are you only looking after your interests???

What do you say. Are you in the worlds best intrest?


...one more thing how many of you have the interest in the rest of the world to be able to recogize even one other country on the world map?

How funny a socialist lecturing/questioning a democratic country...

Dont confuse americans with our government. Not all of us ( about 56 Million, more than the entire population of sweden didnt vote for him). People didnt fly planes into buildings in sweden. I'm liberal and I disagree with bush on most things, but to be questioned by a socailist pisses me off...

[MJDub]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

I disagree with bush on most things, but to be questioned by a socailist pisses me off...

Indeed.

[filthy]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

I was pretty fucked up yesterday and said/wrote many things that i really cant back up.

Still what pisses me off is the fact that your country sends ppl to for example egypt where they get tortured.

[thesightless]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

that's only because countries like yours would throw hissie fits if we did it. however, in the world's mission for "Acceptance", we realized that you guys accept thier beliefs(and by "thier" i mean countries like egypt and Iran where you can kill your wife w/out punishment), so we extradite the prisoners to the countries that have the morals you demand we respect, but also demand that we never embrace. :?

either way, USA seems to be fucked ni the world view if we arent throwing money out in foreign aid and dismanteling any military or intelligence we have.....

[dtgunslinger]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

that's only because countries like yours would throw hissie fits if we did it. however, in the world's mission for "Acceptance", we realized that you guys accept thier beliefs(and by "thier" i mean countries like egypt and Iran where you can kill your wife w/out punishment), so we extradite the prisoners to the countries that have the morals you demand we respect, but also demand that we never embrace. :?

either way, USA seems to be fucked ni the world view if we arent throwing money out in foreign aid and dismanteling any military or intelligence we have.....

And do not forget we never ask for an aid during our horrific natural disaters and we forgive everyones debt to us. When was the last time US got paid?

Sight, we have intelligence? I did not know that.

[thesightless]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

we have intelligence ops out there, but they mostly have thier hands tied due to the restrictive personal and human rights policies. places like russia basically give thier spooks carte blanche to operate. our intelligence had bin laden back in 96 and 98, but clinton never went after him......

when we were in yugo, we had intelligence beyond what what we needed, but when the enemy becomes children and women, its becomes hard to justify te elimination of threats because in most of the world the term enemy only means grown adult men. go figure.

i've said it a million times. you cant be liberal or conservative entirely, you need to realize what issues need to be handled in liberal ways and conservative ways. i.e. security, market accountability, gov't and violent crime(will also include coporate crime here) need more conservative views. but things like social policy, foreign relations, human and enviornmentla rights need a much more liberal view IHMO

[face]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

we have intelligence ops out there, but they mostly have thier hands tied due to the restrictive personal and human rights policies. places like russia basically give thier spooks carte blanche to operate. our intelligence had bin laden back in 96 and 98, but clinton never went after him......

when we were in yugo, we had intelligence beyond what what we needed, but when the enemy becomes children and women, its becomes hard to justify te elimination of threats because in most of the world the term enemy only means grown adult men. go figure.

i've said it a million times. you cant be liberal or conservative entirely, you need to realize what issues need to be handled in liberal ways and conservative ways. i.e. security, market accountability, gov't and violent crime(will also include coporate crime here) need more conservative views. but things like social policy, foreign relations, human and enviornmentla rights need a much more liberal view IHMO

actually they did go after him, but the people who were supposed to take him out were called off at the last minute, for whatever reason i forget. i can find out though...

and as for the conservative/liberal split, i don't think it's as black and white as that. being conservative on security and at the same time progressive on foreign policy is hardly ever possible...think about it...

[thesightless]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

no, i disagree. it is entirely possible. we need, and have done so in the past few yearsm, to emphasize that we will be diplomatic and quiet, but show that we cannot be pushed beyond the brink in a few ways. i.e. 9/11 obviously pushed us over the brink. but also, think about how long the world negotiated with Iraq over the WMD's(dont start, we gave him months to move all of it out, i would be searching iran for a lot of iraqi weaponry right now if i were CIA), human rights, civil liberties of the iraqi ppl. finally saddam found the wrong guy to test (bush) and got taken down in an effort to rebuild the land of the people. (there was this series of articles in the times about the great marshes that saddam destroyed to starve adn kill the resources of the inner iraq. now they are re-growing the marshes and agriculture is coming back, just in a few years.)

just look around the world at all the pro democracy protests and demonstrations that are springing up all over the world. its amazing now that i think about it. i can see now that maybe GWB did some of the dirty work no one else wanted to. he seems to have set off a chain of events whereas the people who have been held down by thier corrupt and insider gov'ts are now showing that they want thier gov'ts to actually be representative fo thier people.)
now only if we could smack him upside the head for the things like imported prescriptions and get him to attack the insurance and HMO industry that's keeping medical care away from those who need it most. also, i think living so much on that gorgeous ranch has blinded him to the real enviormental issues of the world. (i.e. the fact that you cant breathe clean air in LA or manhatten). a few others as well.

[face]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

i would be searching iran for a lot of iraqi weaponry right now if i were CIA

not a chance. i think even the CIA knows that's a wild goose chase. you think iran would let saddam hide WMD on their land? unless you meant they had somehow covertly done this without iran knowing...

just look around the world at all the pro democracy protests and demonstrations that are springing up all over the world. its amazing now that i think about it. i can see now that maybe GWB did some of the dirty work no one else wanted to. he seems to have set off a chain of events whereas the people who have been held down by thier corrupt and insider gov'ts are now showing that they want thier gov'ts to actually be representative fo thier people.)

ii hate to break it to you, but W was not the 'spark' that gave hope to those who yearn for democracy. this has been going on since the early 1990s; we just don't hear about it over here. south africa, chile, and more recently serbia, georgia...and the list goes on...maybe lebanon? oh yeah, remember gandhi and MLK?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45499-2005Mar17.html

Have Faith in People Power
By Peter Ackerman

Washington Post; March 18, 2005; Page A22

Fred Hiatt ["Victims of a Stalled Revolution," op-ed, March 7] was right to excoriate the tyranny of Burma's military rulers.

But he was wrong to suggest that any regime "ruthless enough to threaten and torture not only activists but their relatives" cannot be toppled by people power alone.

Chile's Augusto Pinochet, South Africa's apartheid regime and Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic were often indiscriminate in their killing, but they were brought down by civilian-based resistance. At the time, observers refused to believe that these regimes could fall except to a stronger military power.

Now, as then, no regime is monolithic. Neither does it have infinite capacity for repression. Its military, security services, bureaucracies and business elites are not uniformly loyal forever.

Historically, aggressive but nonviolent tactics such as mass protests, strikes and boycotts delegitimize regimes. Even the Burmese oppressors are not exempt from such pressures.

But people power requires a unified opposition, careful planning and nonviolent discipline. It hasn't worked everywhere because it hasn't been guided by an astute strategy everywhere.

PETER ACKERMAN
Chair
International Center on Nonviolent Conflict
Washington, DC

http://english.daralhayat.com/opinion/contributors/03-2005/Article-20050303-69e1c963-c0a8-10ed-0022-da1770a0ee39/story.html

Lebanon's Nonviolent Intifada: Arab People Power Arrives
By Abderahim Sabir and Shaazka Beyerle

Dar Al Hayat; March 4, 2005

The Lebanese "Intifada for independence" has achieved its first victory with the resignation of the Damascus-controlled government and the mass mobilization of people in Beirut. It's being watched by millions of Arab citizens - from Egypt to Mauritania, Saudi Arabia to Morocco and Syria - who vicariously feel that they are partners in this struggle for freedom and democracy. The Lebanese people understand that power does not just lie in weapons, armies or anonymous bombs. People have power to resist occupiers and dictators, end corruption and discrimination, and gain democracy, human rights and justice.

People power, however, is more than protests. It's the strategic use of a wide variety nonviolent tactics such as strikes, boycotts, other mass actions, and civil disobedience. Mohandas Gandhi said, "Even the most powerful cannot rule without the cooperation of the ruled." People power unfolds when the population withdraws this cooperation, refuses to obey, and uses nonviolent resistance to make "business as usual" impossible for the opponent.

Ukraine's Orange Revolution, which inspired the Lebanese, is the most recent of a long line of victorious people power movements. Last May the predominantly Muslim population of Ajaria, a breakaway province in Georgia, ended the regime of Aslan Abashidze, a third-generation local dictator. A nonviolent struggle was initiated by students who were joined by ordinary citizens. They learned how to plan and strategize from their counterparts in Georgia's Rose Revolution, who had pressured Eduard Shevardnadze to resign after fraudulent parliamentary elections.

The Solidarity movement in Poland won free trade unions and ultimately the demise of the communist regime all the while that one million Soviet soldiers occupied Eastern Europe and national governments took orders from Moscow. The Indian independence movement not only shook the foundations of British rule, but established a stable democracy amidst a population composed of multiple religions and sects.

Some may doubt the viability of people power given Lebanon's occupier. But civilian-based movements do not succeed because a political system is open or because an opponent is soft. It is in closed, repressive situations that they usually emerge. Serbia's Slobodan Milosevic was known as the "Butcher of the Balkans" until he was dislodged by a nonviolent uprising. The Pinochet regime in Chile was infamous for torture and disappearances, yet it too succumbed to a civilian-based movement. The anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa operated under curfews and violent military incursions into black townships.

Will people power succeed in Lebanon? There are four necessary conditions for success. The first is planning. It's not enough to gather spontaneously on the streets, whether in the hundreds or the thousands. Planning the selection and sequencing of a range of nonviolent actions is based on a strategy to de-legitimize the oppressor and undermine its sources of support and control, namely, the organizations, institutions and sectors of society that make decisions and carry out orders.

Planning and strategy are crucial to thwarting counter moves and withstanding repression from the opponent. For example, in 1985 the Sudanese population forced Jaafar Numeiri from power, but the military and a group of civilians struck back, and took control with the promise of holding free and transparent elections the following year. The military intervention and the lack of a clear strategy from the protesters aborted a real opportunity to move the country toward democracy.

A second condition is unity of purpose. Civilian-based struggles need to have widely held political goals in order to win the support and participation of the majority. The Lebanese "Intifada for independence" is gathering momentum through the broad consensus behind its basic demands: freedom from all foreign powers, and democracy. These two objectives appeal to most people regardless of their political or religious affiliations.

Third, nonviolent discipline is absolutely essential. It builds longevity. In contrast to violent uprisings, whereby a minority acts while the majority is sidelined, only nonviolent action will enlist the active participation of average citizens, undermine the loyalty of the opponent's sources of support and control, and enable defections from security forces. It's not possible to co-opt those you threaten to harm.

Lastly, nonviolent movements cannot be created or directed by external sources; they have to be homegrown. The population needs to believe in the cause and righteousness of the struggle in order to stand up in the face of repression and say "enough," as many are now doing in Egypt.

People power is finally reaching the Arab world. Those rulers who, until yesterday, refused any changes are today realizing they may have no choice.

* Mr. Sabir is presently a United Nations Human Rights Officer and a long-time civil society activist from Morocco.
* Ms. Beyerle is Vice President of the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict.

[hoodednight]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

I must admit Sightless...Your comments make me very curious
about your perspective on the "War on Terror." Although, I
agree with you that, because the it is The Superpower, the U.S.
has unrealistic expectations placed on its role in foreign affairs.
However, I get the impresion that you feel as though the U.S.
has been pushed around for too long and that, at some point,
critical mass is reached (i.e. 911) were we are forced to react...

Now, if the U.S. (or any country for that matter) was that
benevolent, a preemptive "War on Terror" MIGHT be justified.
However, when considering the role that years of malicious
and manipulative U.S. foreign policy has played in instigating
terrorist attacks like those of 911, it is difficult to justify this
aggressive posture.

Secondly, I find this claim that GWB set the stage for
democracy in the Middle East to be preposterous. Like most
nation-states, self-serving motives are the very foundation
of U.S. foreign policy. And, it is equally likely that democratic
movements would have errupted earlier in the Middle East, if
the U.S. wasn't in the business of providing financial, military,
and intelligence services and support for some of the most
brutal dictators in the world today (including Saddam). Dirty
work indeed!

With regard to the other comments in this thread, I completely
agree with toasty...

[thesightless]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

true , but i should have worded it more like "" what he did was kick start the snowball that had a slow roll downhill into a bigger faster snowball./" i obviously was gearing the statement to the more recent trend of this. also, the past gov'ts were weaker in the sense of the idea that they wouldnt send out tanks and gunners on thier own people if they demanded reform. a guy like saddam is a one who didnt just oppress his people, he actually killed the land and infrastructure to hold them down in all aspects of opression, he made travel and commerce in the ""opposition areas"" extremely hard. he diverted resources to his own friends. destroyes the agricultural system that the people thrived on throughout history. he kept imports away from people. (oil for food) i dont think chile, lebanon, or serbia was that bad, people had some opurtunity there. i can speak for serbia firsthand, i served there. im lucky that i wasnt a little younger, cause i would still be sitting in iraq right now.

and regarding Iran or some other place, i beleive it was done the way i said it, we gave them months of notice after he refused inspectors for how long? there was something to be hidden, and when saddam realized that someone was coming looking, he sent the evidence outta there. maybe not to iran, but somewhere. black market being the worst area. its not like we went in ovdernight, even a week would be enough to get ppl to load the shit up on a truck and tell the driver to hit the pedal outta town.

[fishingnut]

Re: USA: Worlds most democratic country!?

i'd be looking at Syria for the wmd..remember the reports of the trucks heading to syria. nothing ever will happened right now, i think. cause syria is trying to hold a straight face to the US and throws us a bone here and there with some info.
and all this talk about the US throwing there muscle around i call shinagins to all of them, there all just as guilty as the US for doing things for there own self intrest.