Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[Civic_Zen]

I did not read the thread, I apologize for that. Civic, forgive me for thinking you take Bush's side on most issues, where did I ever get that idea? I guess my comments are off topic for this thread, but the point still stands: one either accepts lies and distortions, or not.

I don't agree with Bush about most things he has done. I DO agree with Iraq, and I DO agree with the largest tax cut in history, which he did at the start of his term. Thats pretty much it. Everything else he has tried to do, and which has failed miserably in Congress I might add, I disagree with.

Since most everyone on this board likes to just assume I support Bush on everything, instead of just the War in Iraq, then I will make a list now, of all the issues that I'm concerned with, where Bush stands on them and what I think of that.

Abortion - Bush Signed the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. Opposes abortion. Would allow exceptions in cases of life-threatening risk, incest and rape. The country is not ready for a constitutional amendment.

- I pretty much agree with this. Partial birth is pretty screwed up, although I am a bit undecided as far as abortion as a whole.

Gay Marriage - We all know where he stands on this. Opposes gay marriage. Has called for a constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

- I am undecided on this issue, at least 100%. But in no way should the consitution be ammended for this crap, so I disagree with where he stands.

War on Terror - Led 2001 war in Afghanistan to end rule of Taliban regime and Al Qaeda bases. War in Iraq was part of War on Terror. Supported measure which helped cut off money to terrorists.

- This is where I love Bush. I understand that some of you disagree, and thats your perogative. However, I don't think Kerry has any balls at all, or he wouldn't mind having some people actually disagree with him. Instead he tries to have a stance on everything, and changes it if he thinks the majority of America disagrees with him. No sence of himself. This is also the most important thing to me in life right now, because I think Colorado is a prime target. NORAD and all.

Defense - Supports focus on countering terrorism. Increase military spending. Wants to increase military pay and develop effective missile defenses.

- Again I agree with Bush. So we are 3 to 1 now, but now I'll get into the things I disagree with Bush on.

Drug War - Has set goals to help reduce youth drug use. Opposes legalization of marijuana. Supports working with foreign governments to stem the flow of illicit drugs.

- Screw Bush on this. The War on drugs is costing American's money for no reason at all. Marijuana should be legalized for medical purposes if nothing else, period. The war on drugs does not do a damn thing to stem the flow of illicit drugs, and hasn't done anything for the 30 years its been happening.

Faith-based Initiatives - Supports federal funding of faith-based programs. Calls on Congress to pass the Faith and Community Based Initiative.

- F`ck Bush again. I hate Christians, I hate Jerry Folwell even more then I hate Michael Moore. I'm not willing to pay taxes so people can further their faith.

Gun Control - Would re-authorize the assault weapons ban. Supports closing the gun show loophole

- I completely agree with him on this. We need to better the legislation against guns which we already have.

Immigration - Does not believe unfair rewards should be given to illegal immigrants. Supports creating a new temporary worker program that will match foreign workers with willing American employers. But he also proposed a plan to make all illegal aliens here, legal.

- I disagree with most of his feelings on this. Especially making all illegal aliens legal. Other parts of his stance I agree with, but not entirely.

Patriot Act - Signed the USA Patriot Act into law. Proposes further changes in law to remove obstacles to investigating and prosecuting terrorism.

- I pretty much hate the Patriot Act, but I see it as a necessary evil, just like Bush himself, and the government as a whole. Its only temporary though.

Stem Cell Research, and Cloning and such - Last I heard, he is against any and all of this.

- Screw that. This is because of his Christian based faith that he has this stance. I completely disagree with him on all of these things.

Okay. So lets tally here.

Agree - War on Terror, Defense, Gun Control = 3
Disagree - Faith, Stem Cell, Drug's, Gay Marriage = 4
Undecided or two close to call = Immigration, Patriot Act. Abortion

I'd say it looks pretty dead even there. But there are more things I disagree with Bush on. Bare in mind this is jut the major things important to me. Social Security, Agriculture, and many other things were left out. Otherwise there would be a lot more things that I disagree with him on, then agree.

Now I can refer anyone and everyone to this post anytime they start making assumptions.

[Kobe]

Okay, we have you on record now. You better make this post a favorite so you can make sure where you stand before posting. :P

Since you support the war, do you feel Bush has been 100% upfront and honest with the American people (within the bounds of national security) about the war, both leading up to and during?

[delirious]

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...iraq_missteps/

A Taxachussets newpaper criticizing george bush??!!!! :o No way! Wait where is John Kerry from again?

Try again.

Thanks for admitting you dismiss conflicting sources without even doing a quick search yourself.

Mr Carney, a former American ambassador with decades of experience in post-conflict zones, spent eight weeks in Iraq trying to get the ministry of industry and minerals up and running.

US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, speaking during a visit to London, admitted the government had overestimated the state of Iraq's infrastructure and found it far worse than expected.

She said Iraq was well below third world standards, even in the cities.

Ms Rice said rebuilding Iraq and creating institutions to govern the country was hindered by the fact that Iraq was a "traumatised" country, which had suffered 30 years of possibly the most brutal regime of the 20th Century.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3021632.stm

Need me to find some more?

[delirious]

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

Michael Moore thinks American's are Stupid

Moore has two personalities. In America, he plays the role of "hero for the common American". But when he is in other countries, he criticizes and insults the very same group of American's he claims to be the role model for. The common man.

- To the German fans, Moore asked "Should such an ignorant people (American's) rule the world."

- When a Japanese interviewer remarked that Moore did not appear to like America very much, he said "I like America to some extent."

- In England, regarding American intelligence, "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet."

- When in Canada. "Just for my own mental health, I need to go sit in a room with 600 canadians and watch my movie."

And you think this is a man that respects you enough, as American common men and women, to tell you the unbridled truth??

Civic_Zen thinks 90% of Viewers are Uneducated

So any uneducated viewer watching this, meaning 90% of those that will see it, will take it that it was Bush's fault.

http://www.mercuryserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=1031&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=18

Hmmm...

[swedetech]

Michael Moore is a cunt!

[dohturdima]

Drug War - Has set goals to help reduce youth drug use. Opposes legalization of marijuana. Supports working with foreign governments to stem the flow of illicit drugs.

- Screw Bush on this. The War on drugs is costing American's money for no reason at all. Marijuana should be legalized for medical purposes if nothing else, period. The war on drugs does not do a damn thing to stem the flow of illicit drugs, and hasn't done anything for the 30 years its been happening.

I pretty much have the same view of Bush and his policies (except abortion, which should be completely legal IMO). You're wrong about medicinal use of MJ - it is actually used quite extensively in medicine(Marinol) in near every state. And re. war on drugs, I disagree with you as well - a lot of money has been and is being funneled to prevention and rehab programs (rather than NARCS, like in the 80's and 90's) to make a huge difference. I know this because I work with people who are in the field. Drugs will always be a problem, as long as there are people willing to take them regardless of the consequences. The curring direction is targeting the potential and existing users more than the supply, which is the proper way to approach this. Making the drugs easly available, given the un-preparedness of large segment of the population to "stay away and think for themselves" is a recipe for disaster. But to say that "war on drugs" is not making a difference is incorrect, IMO.

[maxman]

Question: who has actually seen the movie???

[krelm]

Question: who has actually seen the movie???

Saw it last night - here is what I wrote in another thread...

It's definitely entertaining (Moore is great at that), but there was really nothing shocking or damning in it, and there were so many points where it was obviously a spin and clever editing/selection. He took a bunch of "no-duh" points and blew them way out of proportion - my lord, there are business interests playing in the government?!?!?!?!??!?!?!? OH MY GOD! Who wudda thunk it?! Corruption as usual - sucks, but not shocking.

But aside from the "un-censored" military record of Bush that Moore obtained in 2001 (which lead to conclusions which are documented elsewhere), there really just wasn't anything that people couldn't go out and find for themselves.

Didn't piss me off, didn't inspire me. It left about as lasting of an impression on me as the first Spiderman movie that I watched the night before. Probably even less so due to the constant attention to Kirsten Dunst's rack in Spiderman. :P

-------

That being said, I still don't quite understand why people (even the liberals criticizing him) are so vehemently offended by this movie and Micheal Moore in general. Yes, he is full of shit - that should be obviously clear, even to those that love his work. Big fucking deal - so are most public faces in politics, especially in an election year.

Is it because there is fear that enough people might take him at face value to actually affect the outcome of the 2004 election? If so, I take the attitude that if people are really fucking lazy enough to let somebody (or a movie) else form their political opinion, then they deserve whatever outcome befalls them. If people really are willing to take everything they see in an obviously partisan and politically-charged "documentary" at face-value and let it decide their otherwise undecided vote, they are obviously living a manipulated life and suffer every day.

One would hope that a person would leave Fahrenheit 911 asking questions, not thinking that they have all just been answered.

Otherwise, maybe the majority of us Americans are as stupid as Moore says in his European speeches. :?

Perhaps my expectations for people are too high....also growing up in the brainless wasteland of north Dallas gave me a "fuck 'em" attitude for people who don't think for themselves regarding politics.

[mylexicon]

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

Mr Carney, a former American ambassador with decades of experience in post-conflict zones, spent eight weeks in Iraq trying to get the ministry of industry and minerals up and running.

US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, speaking during a visit to London, admitted the government had overestimated the state of Iraq's infrastructure and found it far worse than expected.

She said Iraq was well below third world standards, even in the cities.

Ms Rice said rebuilding Iraq and creating institutions to govern the country was hindered by the fact that Iraq was a "traumatised" country, which had suffered 30 years of possibly the most brutal regime of the 20th Century.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3021632.stm

Need me to find some more?

I don't get it.....what is so revolutionary about the above and how does it
strengthen you plight. She said pre-war Iraq was really bad, much worse than
they estimated. That means most of destruction in Iraq was done before we
even arrived.

[Civic_Zen]

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

Michael Moore thinks American's are Stupid

Moore has two personalities. In America, he plays the role of "hero for the common American". But when he is in other countries, he criticizes and insults the very same group of American's he claims to be the role model for. The common man.

- To the German fans, Moore asked "Should such an ignorant people (American's) rule the world."

- When a Japanese interviewer remarked that Moore did not appear to like America very much, he said "I like America to some extent."

- In England, regarding American intelligence, "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet."

- When in Canada. "Just for my own mental health, I need to go sit in a room with 600 canadians and watch my movie."

And you think this is a man that respects you enough, as American common men and women, to tell you the unbridled truth??

Civic_Zen thinks 90% of Viewers are Uneducated

So any uneducated viewer watching this, meaning 90% of those that will see it, will take it that it was Bush's fault.

http://www.mercuryserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=1031&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=18

Hmmm...

Since this was bumped I might as well respond to this.

I meant uneducated on the topic at hand. And what F9/11 is and stands for. This movie was made for the regular Joe Moviegoer who knows very little about the politics at hand, and will leave the theatre thinking he has it all figured out. Never doing any research himself to find how Moore twists all of the facts around.

I, in no way, meant uneducated regarding all knowledge. Just that a lot of people take what Moore says as gospel. There are 2 sides to every story my friend.

[day_for_night]

a few points..

1. the average american IS stupid. sorry to break it to you, but you might be the number 1 superpower (at least until china surpases you) but you are ranked #18 in the world in terms of education. there are so many redneck ignorant fucks in the states its mindboggling...anyone who has been to the south cant deny this as true.

2. i know you hate michael moore, and to a large extent i can understand why. but, please dont confuse him with any other media outlet. they are ALL biased...NO ONE TELLS A FULL STORY, each media source has its own twist on things.

3. as much as you dont like to hear this....george bush is a complete retard. the man cant string a sentence together, let alone run a country. you have a C-student running the show...not a pretty sight. he is tactless, clueless about the world outside the US(i can list examples if you like), and a flat out liar.


food for thought...

[Jenks]

^Thanks for the sandwhiches you made our troops in WW2 Canada, they were yummy.

[mylexicon]

we are idiots who make lots of money..........i can live with that. So the
entire world is run by a band of idiots. Lol, Europe and Canada are getting
bossed around by a bunch of autistic rednecks.....lol. If we suck so bad
why don't you guys nut up and take our place.

When are you people going to realize how much you know is not nearly
as important as how hard you work. We have a very small intellectual
community whose soul purpose is to create and protect technological
advancement.........and we pay them dearly.

It's called diversification of the work force. That's why rednecks grow
tabacky and work on big rigs........and the intellignecia pioneer new technology
and egineering ideas. And all the people to stupid to become part of
the intelligencia and too lazy to become part of the economy, become
politicians.........or welfare recipients.......i guess technically they are one
in the same.

[Morgan]

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

Don?t you love politics!

A few points i?d like to make.

Micheal Moore may be a bad guy, but at least he is rasing the issues that have been ignored by the General Public for far too long. As said by Civic Zen there are two sides to every story, Moore is providing a good counter agument to Bush. The issues he raises need to be dicsussed.

In general amercians are inwardly focused, how many rural communties know or care what is happening in the next state let alone in the outside world, not many i would expect.

In europe we consistanly hear how the USA is the world leader in this area or that, this is because big US business buys up reasearch and delevoplment from Europe and Asia then innovates and delevops these ideas and turns them into workable products, a perfect example is the purchase of Qinetic, formally the R&D arm of the British MoD, by the Carlye Group a major US defence company. I have no problem with this it is how internaltion trade works. What annoys me is the USA shouting how great they are and what world leaders they are in many fields, but always they are doing this for profit, if America lead the way with what is right, morally and ethically then i would be alot happier. An example of this is the Kyto treaty, the enviroment is probably fcuked already, but because it might cost an extra cent on a gallon of gas the US has rejected this treaty out of hand, come on US stand up for what is right not what will make you the most money.

The War.
I don?t like being lied to, by my goverment or by the US goverment. The whole basis of the war was chemical weapons, fine so where is this major threat? If the US and UK had been honest and told us the real reasons for invading then their might not have been such a backlash, although i excpect the public would never have supported a war if the honest reasons were stated. On the reasons given for the war why are we not now heading for N korea or into Iran, surely they are more of a threat to the west than an Iraq in the hands of Saddam? On the same note what about the opressed people of Sudan or Zimbabawe, Sudan has oil and a terbble human rights record shouldn?t we invadeding them too?

Lies, hyprocsaisy and ulterior motives just about sums up the bush and blair regeiems, regiem change begins at home is point we should all be thinking of especially coming up to elections in the US & UK.

[Civic_Zen]

We are up to Fifty-Nine things that are Deceipful or misleading in F9/11

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm