Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[krelm]

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

While I do find the movie to be quite full of shit (albeit presented in a funny way), I still just don't see any persuasive arguments as to why people are so damn fed up about it.

It's a political commercial!!

Period - that's all it is. Not *for* any specific candidate, but against Bush in general. Commercials run by any side in any election are filled with half-truths, exaggerations, and often outright lies presented as truth. Bush's supporters are guilty of it, Kerry's supporters are guilty of it - it's the same down to any level where TV spots are aired in elections. Unfortunately, this is how political campaigns are run nowadays.

The difference here is that it F-911 a 2-hour commercial, and Moore is likely making a fortune from it. But still, I don't see it doing anything less truthfully or more deviously than any any other bullshit mudslinging political commerical on TV. It's liberal equivalent to a 2-hour version of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

Are you really worried that it is going to have an effect on the election?

Get over it - you probably have better things to do with your life. :P

[neur0t0xin64]

[quote="krelm"]
The difference here is that it F-911 a 2-hour commercial, and Moore is likely making a fortune from it. But still, I don't see it doing anything less truthfully or more deviously than any any other bullshit mudslinging political commerical on TV. It's liberal equivalent to a 2-hour version of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

Are you really worried that it is going to have an effect on the election?

Get over it - you probably have better things to do with your life.

Dr. Krelm *cough[bullshit] this was an ambitious attempt to equate the swift boat commercial with F/911 although Im afraid you came up half short. Infact if you read the book published by these veterans, you will see that infact these individuals served in the same boat, in the same platoon, and one was Kerrys commanding officer. If your going to equate first hand testimony of respected and decorated war veterans with pithy propaganda from Moore...it proves that not only are you sympathetic to Moores underlying agenda here(which we all know is disingenuous) or your just ignorant to the facts. Do your homework next time, Dr.

P.s. I dont see here where anybody was on it to be 'over' it.

[neur0t0xin64]

this is a really long thread

[krelm]

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

Wow, you certainly like to put words into peoples' mouths (or thoughts into their heads). The Swift Boat commercial was the first example that came to mind of an obviously politically spun commercial focused *against* a certain candidate. Not the main point here. You could insert any of a number of examples of commericals from Kerry's camp, Bush's camp, Gore in 2000, Clinton in 1992/6, etc, etc etc. Perhaps I should have stated it more generally, but I think my point should have been clear from the rest of what was in my post (not the one sentence you decided to focus on).

But you never attempted to answer my question - which I'll state again...

WHY TO PEOPLE CARE SO MUCH??? It's a fucking 2-hour political commercial! It uses the same bullshit and tricks as all other partisan commercials. Why has this brought out the fire so much more than others?

I hold Moore in the same regard with F911 as all of the other spin doctors who come up with misleading political ads - full of shit. I find it sad that political commentary in election years is reduced to such rubbish, but I find Moore to be one of many examples of this problem. No better and no worse than the other slimey motherfuckers responsible for misleading attack-based political ads.

this is a really long thread

my point exactly.

[krelm]

Infact if you read the book published by these veterans, you will see that infact these individuals served in the same boat, in the same platoon, and one was Kerrys commanding officer.

Actually, sorry to get off the topic, but if you want to be fully accurate, only one of the SBVT members actually served in Kerry's boat. The rest served in other boats that sometimes ran missions with Kerry's boat. The doctor in the commercial also never signed Kerry's medical record.

I've done my homework.

But any discussion pertaining to this would probably be more suited to another thread since this one is long enough already.

(check here for a lot of info about the organization:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth

lots of technical jargon, but still informative)

[Civic_Zen]

It just keeps going, and going. Your question, DR, has been answered in the thread on more then one occasion. Go back and read.

And krelm, may I ask where you live?? Because if you live in Germany as it says, then that would explain why you don't know WHY WE CARE SO MUCH?? F9/11 I could care less about, thats not even the point. Its Michael Moore as a whole who I hate, it doesn't matter what he does. Even if I hated Bush, I would hate Moore more. Again you wouldn't understand because your not an American. Period.

Perhaps you should go read the very first post of this thread, the long one. And in it, you will see my personal hatred for this man. Which will probably explain why others care so much. The man is the freakin' anti-patriot, the anti-american. He sits around talking smack about American's and the rest of the world loves him for it. He talks sh~t about our free enterprise, and has said blatently on more then one occassion that Small Business should not exist. Small business is the greatest thing about America, and he finds a way to dismantle that. He doesn't deserve to be in this great country.

My personal hatred for the man stemmed from Bowling for Columbine and my personal attachment to that school. I've hated him ever since, and will always and forever. Again, something that was explained.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with F9/11 except that Moore made that film. Its about Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!! This will entail anything about Moore. I think you should go back to page one and start all over again, then you will see why I care so much about Moore.

[krelm]

Thank you civic - clear answser. Your vitriol for Moore is definitely justified, for reasons way beyond simply negative feelings toward F-911. If anything, you have consistently given the most justified, logical, and researched critique of Moore in general. And I did read your original post - it is certainly extremely informative about Moore, but it doesn't address what I'm getting at.

In my questioning, I'm not trying to lend justification to F-911. It just intrigues me that this has generated so much fire from people against the movie (more on the conservative side, but also from many liberals) when it just seems to me akin to any number of highly spun political commercials that I've seen around election time since probably the '92 Clinton vs. Bush election. To me, it is the same bullshit that's been on TV for years - just 2-hours long and in the theaters this time around.

And FWIW, I am an American - I currently study in Germany, thus the location in my profile. But I was born in Texas, and lived there for 25 years before coming to Germany 2 years ago for grad school. I fully understand why many Americans would dislike Moore - I actually find it somewhat funny how people over here in Europe love him like a god when he is so obviously full of shit. The Palm D'or (sp?) was a total politically-motivated farce.

[Civic_Zen]

I understand your point, but you pretty much gave the reasons why F9/11 has caused more ruckus then any "commercial" just now. Because its 2 hours long, because it was the first movie, shown in theatres for a PROFIT which twisted facts.

I know most people see the lies, and the half-truths, but you just said it - people in Europe don't. They like what he has to say because it represents there way of life more then it does the American way. But also because Moore is a documentarian.

This is a pretty significant title in my opinion, because it suggests that he researches everything and gives you facts. Even if they were facts based upon one side of the equation, that is fine. But don't misrepresent it as a documentary. Thats the other part of it that gets the rest of the world off, we know, and quite a few (I'd say its probably as low as 40-50%) American's know that he is not a documantarian. They know he is twisting the facts to meet with his own agenda. But Europe does not. I happen to know for a fact that these people idolize him, and you just reaffirmed that.

Documentaries are to be made by the BBC, they're to be shown on the history channel. The day something like F9/11 is shown on the history channel, I can assure you that it will recognize 9/11 in a different regard, and the steps Bush and others have taken differently as well. Was/Is the war in Iraq the right thing to do? Perhaps not, but that is for History to decide, not Michael Moore.

[toasty]

Encouraging though is the fact that there is very very little support for Moore on MS, except for toasty who wants to stroke his gooseneck! Rock the delectables.

I've said this before on another thread (or maybe even earlier in this thread), but let me say it again, because there is obviously some confusion on the topic. I think Moore is a jackass and a propaganda whore whose goal in life is to hear himself talk as much as possible and see his name in lights to stroke his ego. As a political activist, he's a moron -- his exchange with O'Reilly during the DNC made that pretty clear. He is, however,a good filmmaker, and F9/11 is a good film. You just have to go into it with your eyes open.

toasty said:
"Just as an aside, scenes are definitely spliced together, but it is generally to get a laugh, not to be persuasive, and it is pretty obvious that they aren't connected."

Now...toasty you say that Michael Moore is not intending to be persuasive...its to simply get a laugh. Im outraged. Im utterly disappointed. ...

And again here you say that Moore wasnt intending to be persuasive?? Moore is a schrill socialist that as you mentioned has made a shit load of money and profitted individually...all by sabotaging certain truths, distorting and embelishing facts, and completely misleading a majority of the public who, up until the time they saw the movie really had no opinion. But because of the movie they see a noble Bush administration as being the tyrant! And Toasty, you are saying that all this is to just simply get a laugh huh? The last two posts I've seen from you have been pathetic. Wise up.

Dude, look back at your quote from my post, and then look at your response. I am not saying that the movie as a whole isn't trying to be persuasive -- I am saying that the parts where you have jump edits are fairly obvious, and those parts are more designed for humor than persuasion. Of course, you'd know that if you'd seen the movie rather than sitting here and trying to discuss it blind.

And is the movie persuasive? No. Despite Moore's obvious intent that it be persuasive and have an impact on the election, it is too over the top to have any sort of real force, and it ends up being entertaining, nothing more. Well, to be fair, it is entertaining if, like me, you think Bush is a bumbling idiot. If you think Bush is noble, well, you probably won't much care for it. If you go into it undecided, you'll probably leave with more questions than you started with.

In closing on this point, I want to make sure one thing is clear, particularly for those that have not seen the movie. I (and others) have talked about the movie being pretty funny. Parts of it are. Parts of it most definitely are not -- the second half of the movie focuses largely upon the current situation in Iraq which is rather poignant but most definitely not funny. Didn't want anyone around here to think I got a kick out of seeing dead bodies and the like.

Just like your other post on another thread where in your prolific analysis of the election, the better candidate(in your opinion) goes to the best sales person. The one who says whats safe to the public careful not to go against the grain. Streamline politics. You attempted to give some clarity to that statement later but it was irrelevant.

Irrelevant? Either I'm not making myself clear, or you're not getting what I'm saying. The question of who I like better and the question of who is doing a better job from a campaign strategy standpoint are two entirely different questions. I don't like Kerry because he is a better sales person or because he is politically careful. I like him because he is not George W. Bush. That is his most endearing quality in my mind, and, for the record, I thought that long before I saw F9/11.

I also happen to think he has made some fairly good decisions vis-a-vis Bush from a campaign strategy standpoint looking at what shapes and moves public opinion, but that's irrelevant to why I'll be voting for the dude.

I think we're talking about two different things here.

[neur0t0xin64]

Toasty, thank you for being a gentleman about the subject. I have to admit I threw my comments out there thinking you would take the bait, over react and get all steamy about it...you did not and I have alot of respect for you for that. And just for the record I think were talking about the same thing...I have a different perspective than you on alot of things but as far as Moore is concerned I know your not supporting him. You have made that clear, and have also made some dynamic points about the subject. Civic_Zen I have to say I agree with you 100% on this topic and I share your passion on the issue. Also, thank you for bigging up the US and giving the respect it deserves. You have said, and Krelm has confirmed that Europe gobbles Moores plums and that bothers me.

Krelm...I think you have made your position clear on the subject. Thank you for clarifiying. Your a smart guy...I think sometimes you say shit to be controversial and I can dig that, but some of your controversial comments do come from a perspective of an outsider looking in just as Civic had mentioned. Well one thing is for sure...nobody here is supporting Moore or his motives. He has done a fantastic job of discrediting himself. Lets start a new thread with some updated events. Moore is old news.

[neur0t0xin64]

Also much respect to all who participate in these debates, some very good insight.

[krelm]

No intent to be contraversial - I just have odd questions and viewpoints sometime. Sometimes I wonder if my brain is half-broken.

And remember, as clarified in my above post, I'm not an "outsider" - I just have lived amongst them for the last couple years. You would be amazed how many misconceptions people who have never been to the states have about Americans - especially Texans.

But yeah, I guess the Moore topic is pretty much worn out - I think most people here basically agree, just have different levels of disdain.