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[Illuminate]

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Where does one commence, amongst contradiction?

I was giving my own comments on Hugh Jackman's videos, not quoting scripture.

Is this not the overall contradiction? As titled in the video 'Is Christianity a Ego Trip?' and a previous post I have resonated two valid psychological perceptions of individual consciences, Fritz's Balance theory and James' varieties on religious experiences. As confusing as it may have been, if the Bible, is the true and everlasting word, then why is not fulfilled to its complete perceptions, yet left to individual dichotomy? You stated: 'God' as love, thus the only form of justification I can exclaim of this is evidential from the Bible, for an Atheist cannot truly hold value to express God's love, if you get what I mean. However, the Bible says Christians should (in summary of a few verses) propose killings, murder other religious priests as they are not fulfilling 'God's' orgasmic narcissism? I guess my fault lies that I don't really understand how this so called God works, thus relating to scripture in the only evidence of this deity's proclamations.

I do, however, enjoy your ego trips, have 3 degrees myself (2 of which are in science), and own a successful business.

I am truly happy for you. I appreciate the work and intellect the field of science holds, for the future of tomorrow is not possible without it, let alone the recount of yesterday is evidential with it. Please do not regard this as an ego trip, I just wanted to make a rebuttal, of a thread on an opposing point of two people who enjoy non-denominational churches, I simply just wanted to merely ask why, and point out on what I believe it bears no significance in individual reasoning. I don't think there has been many notified studies emphasising the value a faith in religion holds to do so. If you don't mind me asking what sciences did you study in? Just out of curiosity.

The most studied/educated scientists recognize a presence of a higher power outside of all laws of science/nature. Statistics hold no meaning for me & never have. I am interested in miracles and things outside of the laws of nature, things that cannot be scientifically explained and are out of our realm. If you can go there, I'll gladly join you. Thanks for sharing your views.

Sorry, but I thought you studied science? How exactly are conclusions confined with evidence from statistical data? Albeit, qualitative/quantitative data holding no means? I understand forecasting errors, or regression residuals, yes they are accounted as errors and it is justified, but surely you have conducted and concluded many experiments based on statistical data, surely? What makes your account for having no reasoning to it? As a mere science observer and stepping into the academic field, I am curious to hear your views on this, as it may differentiate my views on any further experiments I may conduct with statistical data. In addition, your point about leading scientists on having a higher recognition higher than science/nature, well that is 'statistically deemed correct (DeGrasse Tyson's point) but I care of nothing what so ever what their beliefs are, I care again when this is biased against objectivity or encroachment of my beliefs and reasoning for holding trialled and tested methods by critical analysis and peer reviewed on its accuracy.

[Illuminate]

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spirituality > religion

that is all

But... you believe in a Religion?

[floridaorange]

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I believe that religions are cultural and that many of the individuals who practice them are all believing in the same God.

[Illuminate]

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Yes that does make sense, as the origins of the three leading western religions all originated from was it Abraham? I haven't really looked into origins much, I do believe that no Eastern religion has no attachment to a God. Yes there is facets of multiple deities, but I don't think any really believe in the one single God, not really close to the views that the Western Churches may view 'God.'

[floridaorange]

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That's true.

[KiwiTollway]

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I love you Illuminate... that's divine/creator/God in me loving the origin of you. By that, I mean not where you came from as far as parents go, your looks, or your personality that developed, but from where you came from before any of that & beyond ego. When something inside anyone else resonates in you (beyond ego) and feels good, including all things of nature, things that resonate, can't put words to it, that's alignment with our creator. That's what I believe and that's love. When I move beyond this world, I will recognize Illuminate from the next level though we might never meet here.

It's interesting to me that Jesus came to earth to set people free from the laws of man, the laws that are all mentioned in the Bible, especially old testament craziness. He could set you free with a thought because every thought he had had power......free from inner bondage of illness, physical bondage, psychological bondage, all forms of "can't eat that, eat this, kill them, sacrifice this," troubles, etc. He is/was love. That love sets everything free, free to be loved, by that I mean BE not act. I'm interested in discussing being, not anyone's actions. Because I don't believe we are the sum of our actions/decisions/choices, efforts/behaviors, attachments/fears, etc. I, personally, don't believe we are. I know this goes against what most believe.

Education, science, all learning are forms of expansion. But, it's only the expansion that matters, especially expanding in love.

I am a Christian, but alot of typical Christian beliefs don't coincide with my beliefs and I'm fine with that, ego driven and non-ego driven. For example, last Sunday at our church the youth pastor spoke about how we have to first admit we're all unworthy of God's love, then ask for it and receive it. There are scriptures that describe unworthiness, but there are an equal number, if not more, of scripture that describe how worthy we all are. I think the point is we are of little understanding, but we are growing in understanding/comprehension of that love. Sometimes a sermon will resonate with me, doesn't make it more right or wrong, but at that very moment, it resonated and that was allowing me to be/feel loved at that moment. At a different moment, that same message might not resonate at all, might even tick me off, in that moment I am not feeling loved. So I extract the love experience whenever, wherever I can at the moment I'm in alignment with creator. In that way, I am steered via love.

You can call it intuitive or creativity, or an intangible awareness, but it's what's in between all that we see, more about how we feel on a deeper level... and that part of Jackman's videos I really enjoyed.

There are things you know that are outside all rules of nature/science or laws of man. Laws are important, I'm not saying they're not. But you/I can't explain how/why you know what you know all the time, sometimes you just know it. There are things I sense about you based on the words you type, beyond my senses (sense is just a word I'm using), and things you just know about me beyond what I type. This is fascinating, right? This is spirituality, not religion.

At the moments when attending a religious ceremony, such as at church, I am expanded in who I am. That expansion is great. And when it doesn't happen, that's great too because that helps hone me into what I want, what I believe, etc. Each day I cannot go back and be the person I was the day before because I take all experiences in and use them on my path for expanding my being (not my ego). I think our ego minds can keep us running around in circles in our wants & our wounds, replaying old tapes of our mother's [or whomever] words, comparisons, etc. But love allows you to be be you... without resistance.

I like that by attending a church, my funds can affect someone's life on the other side of the world, not because that makes me feel better about me (although it does), but because I value all life and believe all life is worthy of being honored, and I can't more easily reach the other beings over there. I don't believe there is horror/tragedy in death. In death, we simply return to our pure state of love. Love that is purely non-physical. I might have to die a certain way at a certain time to bring expansion/awareness to someone, or to more than one person who knew me, that's because we're all interconnected. Others won't be affected at all by my death maybe some will celebrate I'm gone. Love is in all of that, even in the way in which I die. If there's no love in any of it, if I didn't love while I was alive in physical form & there's no expansion anywhere because of my presence or absence, and if no one loved me, it's all pointless being... thus, God is love and that love is in all creation... in the stillness, in the meditation, in the chaos, maybe even in violence. I don't believe there is love in violence, but maybe that's because of my limited scope? It's in the expanding of your ability to love that makes life worthwhile. Everything else is just business & the passing of time.

As far as scientific experiments, they too, are for learning and expanding. It's a method of expanding that feels very comfortable to scientific type people, but it's also simply expansion. You cannot account for everything. They are, ultimately, only statistics, valuable to some, valuable to a degree, limited ultimately, important nonetheless, but I choose not to focus in that direction. I can still say to my child "60% of all African Americans are in prison in this country or 10% of all female college students will be raped.." or some other statistical facts [& these I just made up, true or not] if those statistics resonate with her being and lead her/him in a different direction, that exchange was important, not necessarily the statistics themselves. Statistics can help us learn about our physical world, but regardless of errors or accounting for the unaccountable, the unaccountable is what's really interesting to me. How did that baby seemingly come alive after being presumed & measured as dead for 2 hours after birth? That's fascinating! Scientists probably concluded it was because their measurements were off, or there was something intangible that took over between the exchange of a mother loving/grieving her dead child, it was the sound of her heart beat like music to the baby's hearing sense, it was the baby's power to live, it was the power of the physical touch or was it the power of a higher power? Most likely, different scientists concluded different forms of reasoning. There is peace in "I don't know, it's not up to me." And there is peace in "I must find out conclusively." It's all valid and reasonable, but the statistics themselves are only measurements of what we can measure. I like the unmeasurable, that's what I was saying.

I think I've beaten this all to death now, back to work.

[Illuminate]

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Do you remember that 'What if I told you?' video about something along the lines of Jesus is the answer, however Jesus only exists because of Religion? Paradoxical yes, mere stupidity surely not?

Well along those lines, What if I told you all of what you have stated above, about love, resonating charity, expansion at weddings, and warm feelings does not require a religion, science, or church to express this in its true nor humanistic ways?

And the most phrased verse from the Bible John 3:16 sounds something like this: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Again, this God only sees value by killing? Supporting to previous views of abolishment of individual rights, purgery, moreover, sacrificing his only Son to somehow save us all? Did this God do not the same things with Abraham, bit of psychological foreplay to kill his son by a means as a test?

I really did not understand what the above presentation was about? I apologise for this, as I mentioned to you my atheistic views fail to comprehend anything with a sentence of God and love together as one. However, one thing I did find a common trait when I debate with other religious paradigms is the view of conversing away from the question I propose.

I had asked why you believe statistics is not important, and your answer related to made up statistics you 'resonate' to your child? The point I benign, is if you have studied the sciences you should surely answer this question, let alone parry away from a 'made up' statistics, and conclude on a baby being dead for two hours? For you see, my argument lies deep within this point, I can only affirm that statistical data is pretty valid in a myriad of studies, some of which I hope to validate on very soon. Climate change for example could not have been possible to validate without statistical data, The list is never ending with relation to this validity. So I may ask again why do you believe statistics is not important?

With allusion to the points above do you understand my some what head scratching why I still do not believe Religion, God, Jesus, can't really explain the unexplainable for me?

I may have to conclude on a personal hero of mine, Mr. Hitchens to 'resonate' what I believe should conclude this matter:

“Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.”

[Illuminate]

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Kiwi if you don't mind I like adding humorous quotes from members to my signature. If I may quote your first line from that previous post.

[KiwiTollway]

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haha, glad you found it humorous. You won my heart many posts ago.

I never mentioned expansion at weddings, don't know what that's about, and I never said statistics are unimportant so I cannot answer the question posed to me. Statistical data is very valuable. I sincerely apologize I don't have time to quote accurate ones and my example was a poor one. I never said church was required to experience things mentioned. I have tried to convey my thoughts/beliefs/perceptions "ad nauseam" so I now surrender. I believe we actually agree on many points. No need for scratching. I think my point was more that the statistics of what scientists believe is uninteresting to me. (I've been interrupted 6 times by children while trying to post my thoughts this evening.) Sorry if this sounds scattered.

If you'd like a better example of a real-life physical/spiritual experience that defies science, logic, and statistics more so than the new-stillborn baby brought back to life, I recommend the memoir by Anita Moorjani "Dying To Be Me" for your consideration, if you're so inclined. She was raised Hindu... makes no matter to me. Her experience/story is fascinating.

Thank you kind person. "We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-minded-ness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.” -Christopher Hitchens

[floridaorange]

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Beautifully articulated Kiwi, enjoyed reading your posts.

I like that by attending a church, my funds can affect someone's life on the other side of the world, not because that makes me feel better about me (although it does), but because I value all life and believe all life is worthy of being honored, and I can't more easily reach the other beings over there. I don't believe there is horror/tragedy in death. In death, we simply return to our pure state of love. Love that is purely non-physical. I might have to die a certain way at a certain time to bring expansion/awareness to someone, or to more than one person who knew me, that's because we're all interconnected. Others won't be affected at all by my death maybe some will celebrate I'm gone. Love is in all of that, even in the way in which I die. If there's no love in any of it, if I didn't love while I was alive in physical form & there's no expansion anywhere because of my presence or absence, and if no one loved me, it's all pointless being... thus, God is love and that love is in all creation... in the stillness, in the meditation, in the chaos, maybe even in violence. I don't believe there is love in violence, but maybe that's because of my limited scope? It's in the expanding of your ability to love that makes life worthwhile. Everything else is just business & the passing of time.

I have found that sometimes people who have a hard time with the Loving God concept also have a hard time with the concept of total forgiveness for their sins, or of the sins of someone in their life. Their parents might have practiced a religion or not, but didn't walk the walk, they just went practiced the religiousness for religions sake. Or lead a life weighed down by sin against them, holding grudges, never really letting go and therefore never fully living a free existence to love freely. I think these are some of the reasons people can't wrap their minds around "God." Not saying this applies to Illuminate, who I also have always enjoyed discourse with in MS, just throwing it out there really. Many times my conversations with people who have the toughest time were raised Catholic, or have some Catholic connection in their family which has thoroughly turned them away from the idea of God and church, sadly. Other times it's as simple as some people open admitting to me they don't feel worthy of being forgiven, for reasons usually stemming from childhood. Again, not saying this applies to you Illuminate. I guess part of my point is that regardless of the accuracy of the bible or the reality of their being 1 God and his son being Jesus (which I do believe) but regardless of those concepts being accurate, I personally really enjoy the notion of feeling forgiven, not carrying around the weight of the worlds sins and my own all the time.. Which I might add is easy for me to feel when I feel disconnected from "God." This forgiveness allows me to forgive others more freely on micro and macro levels, and allows me to see them in a certain way that may or may not be possible otherwise. On a level higher than just the human level.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think it's really really unfortunate that the way in which some individuals have practiced religion has turned away others from embracing spirituality.

BTW, this is a great album for reading Kiwi's posts to Tycho - Dive {Full Album} - YouTube

[KiwiTollway]

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^ Thank you for associating anything I wrote with that beautiful music, how delightful!!

I have found the same thing regarding people with ties to Catholicism. Rather than finding they are no longer embracing a spiritual walk, I think it's more they are distancing themselves from organized religion in general because of their experiences involving Catholicism. To stop growing spiritually for any reason is really sad, I so agree, but probably everyone goes through that at one time or another. Bad experiences can do that to people for awhile. i get it.

I also believe there is one true God and in the trinity-- Father, Son & Holy Spirit. I am exploring the Holy Spirit now in my walk with Christ. And here's the thing...to any small, innocent child, their parents represent gods to them. Since parents often bring their own flaws into parenthood, that experience for a child can have lasting effects on their spiritual walk. (I think abused children are the hardest adults to reach spiritually.)

Christianity is not like a salad bar where you get to pick & choose what theology suits you.... like forgiveness, which is a good example of an aspect people, of course, find easy to embrace. Forgiveness can be used by some as a sweeping brush allowing anything and everything and relying on that promised forgiveness to cover it "well, I know I'm forgiven" when in context it says "go and sin no more" don't forget. (not saying you do that, just saying.) Whereas "love covers a multitude of sins."

One of my favorite ages of my kids is when they're about 3 years old and could articulate their thoughts/feelings, but still come from a rather pure spiritual place. My youngest used to look at himself in the mirror to talk to Jesus. How telling is that? An innocent child goes to the mirror... because he knows God is IN him, not just all around him, maybe he knows this spiritually? I know no one taught him that. You can learn a lot about God through a young child.... they live in the now, everyday is new, they easily forgive & love everyone, they want to have fun, laugh, enjoy life, they can see a person's heart not just their behavior & looks, they have preferences but those preferences are ever changing while some remain constant.

I remember when I was growing up, looking in the mirror was a kind of reassurance "Yea, I'm still here" and there was some kind of comfort in seeing my image. And it's like I know deep inside when I'm reflecting God, or when I'm not... I can tell by the way I feel inside about myself. Notice how you feel when you're mean or angry to someone vs how you feel being kind/gentle with anyone. Isn't that God directing you and saying "I am love inside you" ? I think so. If you can see value in every person, whether they are reflecting Christ or not, they might be reflecting the opposite of Him, every bit of information helps you see Him more clearly because it expands your awareness.

I wasn't raised in a spiritual way, so when I was growing up and anyone even mentioned Jesus, I felt insulted inside as if just His name, that word, made me less than an actual person, one who made mistakes. That was my ego-driven mind exerting that no one was more important than how I felt inside. That part of your ego, the part that has to have concrete answers, has to have evidence, has to wrestle every concept to the ground until it's dead & makes sense, that part has to die for the greater part of faith to grow inside you. Knowing we live in a miracle-drenched world where so many things happen that no one can explain, it gives me great comfort, which is love also.

God doesn't conjure bad things to happen unless they serve the purpose of expanding a person's awareness of their connection with Him. [These are just my own views. I don't claim to really know.] He has the power and it's too complex for me to understand the "whys" because only the creator has the bigger view; I'm a mere, tiny flashlight, I can only direct anyone towards what I, myself, have seen. I've been like Job wrestling with God and wanting to know purpose of pain/suffering, of loss, of everything. There's just so much love & comfort in the Bible (like in the world), why would anyone purposely point out or focus on the violence? What purpose does that serve? What you focus on becomes your reality. How much more important is gratitude? Immensely!! Job lost everyone and everything he held dear to learn these concepts. Because someone doesn't recognize God is there, doesn't mean God isn't STILL actively involved in that person's life.

Job 33 (The Message version).....

God always answers, one way or another,
even when people don’t recognize his presence.
^15-18 “In a dream, for instance, a vision at night,
when men and women are deep in sleep,
fast asleep in their beds—
God opens their ears
and impresses them with warnings
To turn them back from something bad they’re planning,
from some reckless choice,
And keep them from an early grave,
from the river of no return.

^19-22 “Or, God might get their attention through pain,
by throwing them on a bed of suffering,
So they can’t stand the sight of food,
have no appetite for their favorite treats.
They lose weight, wasting away to nothing,
reduced to a bag of bones.
They hang on the cliff-edge of death,
knowing the next breath may be their last.

^23-25 “But even then an angel could come,
a champion—there are thousands of them!—
to take up your cause,
A messenger who would mercifully intervene,
canceling the death sentence with the words:
‘I’ve come up with the ransom!’
Before you know it, you’re healed,
the very picture of health!

^29-30 “This is the way God works.
Over and over again
He pulls our souls back from certain destruction
so we’ll see the light—and live in the light!

Job 35:
^9-15 “When times get bad, people cry out for help.
They cry for relief from being kicked around,
But never give God a thought when things go well,
when God puts spontaneous songs in their hearts,
When God sets out the entire creation as a science classroom,
using birds and beasts to teach wisdom.
People are arrogantly indifferent to God—
until, of course, they’re in trouble,
and then God is indifferent to them.
There’s nothing behind such prayers except panic;
the Almighty pays them no mind.
So why would he notice you
just because you say you’re tired of waiting to be heard,
Or waiting for him to get good and angry
and do something about the world’s problems?

Job 42:

^1-6 Job answered God:
“I’m convinced: You can do anything and everything.
Nothing and no one can upset your plans.
You asked, ‘Who is this muddying the water,
ignorantly confusing the issue, second-guessing my purposes?’
I admit it. I was the one. I babbled on about things far beyond me,
made small talk about wonders way over my head.
You told me, ‘Listen, and let me do the talking.
Let me ask the questions. You give the answers.’
I admit I once lived by rumors of you;
now I have it all firsthand—from my own eyes and ears!
I’m sorry—forgive me. I’ll never do that again, I promise!
I’ll never again live on crusts of hearsay, crumbs of rumor.”

And because Job was honest with God, careful always with his words & thoughts, not listening to gossip & hearsay, no longer questioning every move God made in his life, Job's entire life was restored with blessings 100x more than he experienced in the first part of his life. Honesty/truth is love. When any religion is dishonest, teaching lies about power, lies against what they truly know in their hearts is the truth, that's when I want nothing to do with any organized religion either, because it's no longer loving people, but using them. They teach love is testing, love is hard, good is difficult work, but truthfully, love is easy, easy like when we're little children and haven't been conditioned into believing we're inherently bad. All you really have to be is the loving human being He created you to be, nothing more, nothing less. If you're not you, you're not love.... because God is IN you, he's in your love. Now that's freedom!! [my own opinion]

Currently in my spiritual walk, I have exhausted all my petitions, my questions, my complaints, all blame and agony. Now, I am looking inward to what God says to me, directly, and I've found He speaks through everything and everyone, music, nature, everything, including Illuminate. He speaks to me through words of love that He knows touch/move me in a certain way with resonance.... I've found resonance is like a switch I just turned on and got in tune to.... and that's how I know it's Him coming through... that comforting resonance that I don't have words for, it just speaks to my spirit in a way I can't explain... I just know God is love. I know what I know because I know what I know. I can't explain it, prove it, etc.

that tycho music, thank you so much FL!! This has been fun connecting in this way! On with life.....

[floridaorange]

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Christianity is not like a salad bar where you get to pick & choose what theology suits you.... like forgiveness, which is a good example of an aspect people, of course, find easy to embrace. Forgiveness can be used by some as a sweeping brush allowing anything and everything and relying on that promised forgiveness to cover it "well, I know I'm forgiven" when in context it says "go and sin no more" don't forget. (not saying you do that, just saying.) Whereas "love covers a multitude of sins." ..

Not sure what the "salad bar/picking and choosing what theology suits you" means in the context of this discussion...

As for the part about people using "forgiveness" to justify sinning... it's not really what I'm referring to. It's more about the grace aspect of forgiveness. Giving and receiving grace for yourself and for others. We are all sinners, we all make mistakes, we all are far far far from perfect. Given that, it's just really really important to forgive yourself, be good to yourself and allow God to forgive you, for anything frankly. I don't really get hung up on the legalistic aspects of Christianity, at all.

I also believe that "Christians" worship different definitions of "God." It's not as if all Christians view who God is the same way.

[KiwiTollway]

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Given that, it's just really really important to forgive yourself, be good to yourself and allow God to forgive you, for anything frankly. I don't really get hung up on the legalistic aspects of Christianity, at all.

I so completely agree with you; that's so very true. Was I sounding legalistic? yiiiiikes... I hope not.

[Illuminate]

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Not saying this applies to Illuminate, who I also have always enjoyed discourse with in MS, just throwing it out there really.

Again, not saying this applies to you Illuminate.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think it's really really unfortunate that the way in which some individuals have practiced religion has turned away others from embracing spirituality.

In fact, relating me to having a tough catholic upbringing, is not only an insult to me but to my parents as well. What right nor fact can you individually permeate within my up bringing on why I think any form of religion is utter nonsense more than anything. My father was an academic and a practising engineer, he expressed a strong view of atheism within the household, there you can conclude how this had worn off on me.

[Illuminate]

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I also believe that "Christians" worship different definitions of "God." It's not as if all Christians view who God is the same way.

Ahh now we're getting somewhere, amidst the contradiction on all of the above posts have gotten, shall we amidst on your perception that religion is a personal observation?

Much like Depeche Mode - Personal Jesus?

More to your response Kiwi, is this a fight amongst Christians trying to understand their own religion?

A great way I understand religion is as And as expressed by Pascal Boyer: ‘Our minds are prepared [for belief] because natural selection gave us particular mental predispositions.’ This is evidential through our ancestors, much before Adam and Eve ever came into existence. Some chose to comprehend the deity bears significance, some chose no, and conclude that it gets in the way of progress and has no previous liberating evidence.

And Florida, a good article to maybe having an evidence on your conclusions why Atheists are Atheists:

Three cognitive routes to atheism: a dual-process account
David Peter Kalkman
Religion
Vol. 44, Iss. 1, 2014