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[Illuminate]

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From previously readingBreaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel Dennett, there was a quote I searched and finally found, that I believe looks at the in-necessity of a need for religion, moreover its prudentials to spirituality;as there is none :

“If you can approach the world's complexities, both its glories and its horrors, with an attitude of humble curiosity, acknowledging that however deeply you have seen, you have only scratched the surface, you will find worlds within worlds, beauties you could not heretofore imagine, and your own mundane preoccupations will shrink to proper size, not all that important in the greater scheme of things. Keeping that awestruck vision of the world ready to hand while dealing with the demands of daily living is no easy exercise, but it is definitely worth the effort, for if you can stay centred, and engaged , you will find the hard choices easier, the right words will come to you when you need them, and you will indeed be a better person. That, I propose, is the secret to spirituality, and it has nothing at all to do with believing in an immortal soul.”

[Illuminate]

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On the point of Christianity not being a "Salad Bar" you two believing in a Non-Denominational church is that not in any sense a selection of your religion, "where you get to pick & choose what theology suits you"?

I merely applaud on this, when you debate with more than one religious person. After a while they end up winding each others knots on individual interpretations, and you get the rest...

Back to my lemon squash,

[KiwiTollway]

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No one concluded you had any Catholic upbringing or experience Illuminate.. in fact, you even quoted him as saying he was NOT applying any of that to you. I thought you left the conversation. I got what FL was expressing there and I was trying to agree. But, I think my own views got convoluted somehow and I feel I'm not expressing myself well here anymore.

I really don't know what FL means by Christians worshiping different definitions of God. I didn't mean for the conversation to go in that direction and I didn't mean to seem legalistic. I am not "trying to understand" Christianity as much as I am always learning about it and my own spirituality. I stay open to experiences of learning and enjoy something that resonates with me.

I spent most of my early decades pretty much not believing in anything, but I still prayed when faced with scary situations. I don't believe I have a mental predisposition for any particular belief seeing as I believe the opposite of almost every single person in my family.

This has become less fun now so I am bowing out. Thanks!

[Illuminate]

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No one concluded you had any Catholic upbringing or experience Illuminate.. in fact, you even quoted him as saying he was NOT applying any of that to you. I thought you left the conversation. I got what FL was expressing there and I was trying to agree. But, I think my own views got convoluted somehow and I feel I'm not expressing myself well here anymore.

I think you may have not understood the full message

I really don't know what FL means by Christians worshiping different definitions of God. I didn't mean for the conversation to go in that direction and I didn't mean to seem legalistic. I am not "trying to understand" Christianity as much as I am always learning about it and my own spirituality. I stay open to experiences of learning and enjoy something that resonates with me.

Ok, awesome, even you fail to understand this, as much as I do,

I spent most of my early decades pretty much not believing in anything, but I still prayed when faced with scary situations. I don't believe I have a mental predisposition for any particular belief seeing as I believe the opposite of almost every single person in my family.

Sorry, you did believe in something. You prayed when 'faced with scary situations.' So... if you pray I believe that yes you are a believe in a deity and practise a form of religion.

This has become less fun now so I am bowing out. Thanks!

Thanks for your time. I hope you're more confused than I ever was about Religion, more so the idiocracy of Christianity.

[Illuminate]

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One more to round out this thread,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him will believeth in anything. - Hitchens 3:16”

[floridaorange]

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I was raised in a religious home, and I believe firmly that there are many benefits to attending a church, regardless of ones beliefs. I may have said some things earlier that were too blunt, but basically what the reason why is due to my early experiences in church. So much politics and legalism. But you take the good with the bad, and mostly I am glad I went with my family growing up. I think there is way too much religion for sure, and I don't think a person has to go every sunday or read their bible every night, or pray before every meal, in fact less of that is better. The "salad bar" phrase I have heard many times at church camps, so it just kind of sent shutters down my spine .

Most humans are on a spiritual or intellectual journey in life if they are at all self-actualized, and I don't think they have to go to church to be a good person or anything like that. In fact I have several atheist friends, and they are great people and I would never tell them what to do. All I was saying to start with is, I happened to find a church that I like. I did not think that was possible in Central Florida, where I thought all churches were too kooky here. It's nice to connect with other families our age and just get together for positivity sake.

My goal is to start a homeless outreach program via this church. I don't pretend to believe church is just about ME and MY family. It's about helping each other and showing my son and wife examples of other families who are going through the same things we are, helping my wife feel more connected with her community and things of that nature. I try to keep things simple, moderate and open, not saying I know what's right for anyone else. It is in my nature though to help people, I tend to care more than a lot of people do about people I don't know, that's part of how I was raised.

Have an intellectual, good, blessed, terrible day, it's all a part of the human experience after all. Most of life involves suffering, may as well suffer together, going about it alone is not ideal, but is an option.

[KiwiTollway]

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Illuminate, I'm not confused whatsoever. I am not at all confused about what I believe. There is no confusion, no fog, nothing cloudy, muddy, with me about this. Trying to relay what I believe on a forum of strangers using words typed on a keyboard is somewhat a challenge. Would you like me to go over John 3:16 in the detail as I understand it? (btw, it is engraved on a plaque in my living room.) Or any scripture that has you so flabbergasted so many believe in and have for thousands of years, I am willing to give you my best attempt.

I understand you find my beliefs incredibly foolish. We can hijack this thread if you'd like. I'm only working a half day today because I have company coming in this weekend and wanted to get somethings ready here at home for my guests. But let me be very clear about my intentions, I have no wish to convince you, convert you, or make you believe anything other than what you believe. I am willing to open myself to your scrutiny because that exposure doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am not God, and I don't pretend to be, or to have all the answers. But, I have a relationship I can tell you about if you're interested.

Let me ask you .... Is your father still living? How about your mother? Have you ever reached the end of yourself at anytime in your life yet? If you haven't, I believe you will at some point (maybe, maybe not). Have you ever had something happened that literally knocked you down it was so shocking, jolting, upsetting? Or has life been relatively smooth and easy for you thus far? I'm just curious. If anything ever really jolting happens to you, something that fills you with angst and unanswered questions, maybe you'll be inclined to contact Kiwi? I'd like that.

I believe it is a natural state of being to reach the end of yourself at some point in time. Does it mean you'll change your beliefs when that happens, who knows? Maybe not. I certainly don't pretend to know the future. I can only relay to you what I've lived firsthand. I know you think of Christianity as some foolish philosophical justification or mental adaptation or whatever, but I can assure you (better if we were talking face to face to each other) it is part of my life inside my inner being and it has manifested things for me I could never have conjured, things of which I have no control, things of which there are no scientific answers, and in fact, were against ALL odds and statistical probability. I can't go into detail here because it's too personal and I am not that type of person. But I can give you some glimpses of details...................

I have been spoken to (not audibly, but through thoughts) in my dreams, I have been prompted outside of my capabilities, I have been pushed outside of my own free will, I have witnessed miraculous manifestations right before my eyes; it's not as if some person told me to believe this so I did, not at all. In fact, I'd say I fought against it as hard as you are/do. And I had no family atmosphere at home sending me in this direction, I had quite the opposite. I think even Atheists have faith in something, maybe it's themselves, nature, biology/science, but they believe something. And with faith as small as the tiniest seed, it's still faith.

In my neighborhood growing up, we had some Catholic families and I thought they were weird. My mother would turn in disgust at how many children they had and she'd whisper to me "they don't believe in birth control, how horrendous!" And I thought anyone who went to church was really weird... because my mother thought that too. And for years, I'd go to a funeral or wedding and I'd think "This stuff is so foreign and feels so uncomfortable, these people are crazy to do these things, think these things!"

Then I started experiencing loss and lots of it. Things were happening in my family that involved very hurtful lies and it was all very much out of my control, and nothing was how I always thought they were, people I loved dearly were being terribly hurt, and none of it was within my control, and that hurt me, really, really badly, and I was extremely confused. As I looked outside of my own family situations, I wondered about people who had more peaceful lives and why was my family situation such a mess? Why do some people not have to experience loss early in their lives and while others do? I felt very much "Why me? Why this?" and "I do not want this." Then, things got worse!!! I mean, really worse!! I thought "Ok, this IS unbearable." I thought "THIS is MY life, you have to be kidding me? THIS is horrible!!" Have you ever thought that? It was very, very personal, not of my choosing, and I hardened up fast. I was so hardened I didn't care about anyone or anything. I had to just get through each day with whatever comfort I could find, and I found some, and just kept putting one foot in front of the other.

Then one day when I was about 21, a total stranger came up to me at work in the lunch room and said "He knows everything that has ever happened to you just as he's counted every single hair on your head." And I thought "Freak!!! Get away from me!" to her. I gobbled down my french fries and I never went near her again. lolz

What I'm saying is, I get where you're coming from. And I know you can stay there easily and maybe you will. But with this life, you just never know do you? I never asked questions you're asking or even engaged in conversation with people about it, but they sought me out. They came into my awareness at random times and said seemingly random things to me, but I can look back now and say "I was sought after." There was seeking and it was not of my doing. I was not seeking. I wondered why things happened to me and my family and not to everyone else I ever knew, but I thought it was just bad luck. Like a bad deck of cards I thought I was handed. My mother would say "Deal with the cards you're dealt that's all you can do" and so that's all I knew to do. I tried that and it just didn't work out for me. I had dreams of a better life. But believe me, I did not seek any religion, wasn't taught it, had no idea anything about it until it started very, very slowly finding me .....by a word here, a word there, a kindness unexpected, an unconditional friend, still I resisted.

And today... I'm "the freak" discussing these things with you. haha.... that's life for ya! A big, wide circle I guess.

Talk to ya later if you want "Mr Hitch." If not, I'm down with letting this all drop. Back to basking in the sun under my red striped umbrellas....and I think I'll listen to tycho, dive again today... so peaceful.

[KiwiTollway]

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FL gives me tingly goosebumps!

(just read his post after I posted mine. enjoyable post FL)

[Illuminate]

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This thread to me resembles a scab that you just have to keep on picking; the scab in my individual opinion is the mere illusion of religion, and its portrayal in our lives. Once burdened by a deity, the scab – it never heals, as much as our mediocre obsessions to relieve, depress, or medicate it, the blasphemous nor arrogant opinions it derives cannot transcend the individuals opinions that everything will be all right if we surrender. More so, profane our sub consciousness to an all loving, ever caring, jealous God, prophesising a mediated reclamation, in all accounts. The way I have viewed this objectivity of God, from all Western religions (Eastern seemed too complex to grasp), was in fact that all humans are bound by a burden of sin. Where you can in assembly, have these sins removed by begging forgiveness, and in stating your vulgar proclamation of repaying a sin as a currency, whilst in a sense the currency is calculated by the means of transpiring ‘love.’ As evident in Florida’s post of I personally really enjoy the notion of feeling forgiven, not carrying around the weight of the world’s sins and my own all the time... Which I might add is easy for me to feel when I feel disconnected from "God.” This forgiveness allows me to forgive others more freely on micro and macro levels, and allows me to see them in a certain way that may or may not be possible otherwise. On a level higher than just the human level.
The religious proclamation of love I define as almost a commandment form the supernatural, you must love the ‘God’ in return for forgiveness, or forever hold your final judgement to the perils of hell. Is this not a sense of contradiction not a mere paradox of expressing love bound by a commitment to the deity? Furthermore, God has you under appeal for your somewhat ‘eternal’ life. I ask what is the difference of this from a dystopian view on the operations of society, having an invisible dictator controlling your actions with no consequences?

Kiwi I respect you as a person, and irrespective of my religious views, I believe you hold an equal if not a greater necessity to the overall contribution our existence. However, I must make note that most of your posts in any thread seem to be held subservient to Florida’s, for yes we all take sides, more so it could be a formal attraction, but I have always viewed that Religion treats if not degrades women. I cannot comprehend why you do this, but as an individual you may posing to seek a vagrant connection, or even a framework of moral/subconscious support. Women as portrayed in religious views I cannot agree with. If the origins story, and that is as far as it remains in its epilogue claimed The Lord God said "It is not suitable for the man to be alone, I will make a helper for Him (Genesis 2:19). Thus, from the creation of the human species, the woman has always been only a helper, in religious dichotomy. This does not obviously only resound in Christianity but continues in the horrific treatment within and against Islam, and the obscure treatment of women in Judaism excluded from prayers, and the obscure tradition of holding Mikveh, to name a few. I suppose much like other fence sitters, in need of an understanding found the omnipresence within supernatural forms, on the progression if not advancement of the spiritual self, much like yourself with Florida, has a relation that you agree if not correspond with. I cannot claim this, as I do not only have nil regards to faith, henceforth believe in individual persistence rather than the supernatural or figures.

Your claim that I have witnessed miraculous manifestations right before my eyes, I regard as utter nonsense (you guessed it) for reading David Hume’s’ enquiry concerning human understanding written in 1776 mind you. He noted that In the foregoing reasoning we have supposed, that the testimony, upon which a miracle is founded, may possibly amount to an entire proof, and that the falsehood of that testimony would be a real prodigy: But it is easy to shew, that we have been a great deal too liberal in our concession, and that there never was a miraculous event established on so full an evidence. I may view miracles as utter nonsense, but I may not hold any opinion onto your views. For within our dominions, we are freed to express our proclamations.

In some way, you may be asking why am I such a ‘God hater,’ well the deprivation on quotes like; Things of which there are no scientific answers, and in fact, were against ALL odds and statistical probability. I can't go into detail here because it's too personal and I am not that type of person. But I can give you some glimpses of details is why I have such strong opinionated views of religion. The constant views of the religious person/group have an uttermost personal connection to the deity who frees them to the good times ahead. The encumbrance of influence it has in politics, legal perceptions, protesting with pitch stakes on advances in science, homosexuality, abortion, liberation, and to say the least the millennia’s of wars, torture, hatred and loss of innocent lives due to a religious proclamation. In recent times a view on this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...958_story.html)

Nevertheless, my foremost abhorrence relies on the contradiction it is euphemised in its existence. As I love bickering Christianity I must look to the divine if not near Mary like saint of Mother Theresa. The Catholic’s answer to Margret Thatcher, who in her later years had expressed her loss of he faith in letters sent to the heads of the Catholic Church at the time. Quotes like:
I call, I cling, I want ... and there is no One to answer ... no One on Whom I can cling ... no, No One. Alone ... Where is my Faith ... even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness ... My God ... how painful is this unknown pain ... I have no Faith ... I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart ... & make me suffer untold agony.
And in response to these letters, the bishop who canonised her as a saint, the Rev Brian Kolodiejchuk, who has prepared an edition of her letters as part of the evidence that she really was a saint. "It will give a whole new dimension to the way that people understand her," he told Time magazine (http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...eresaanatheist)

Thus, keep your feel-good traditions away from law, the state, and me. For I may rest another day. Much like the founding fathers of America, that had made of what it is today held such a great secularism, and should be congratulated on such an effort for posing moral, ethical, and prolusion without spirituality.

[KiwiTollway]

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"Thus, keep your feel-good traditions away from law, the state, and me." Illuminate, I will keep my thoughts away from you as you desire, but your statement is not true regarding the law or the states. After all I've revealed to you about my own experiences, and you have revealed nothing & answered no questions I posed to you, that you can call what I've written "feel good traditions" is beyond me. I've opened myself up far more than you have to me and yet you call my experiences "claims" okay then, I see where I stand now.

I apologize for not making myself as clear as you'd like me to regarding my own experiences. I am subservient to no man [or woman] of any kind regardless of their race, age, or religion, I assure you of that, you're right. I don't know if you're from Sydney or America, but if you reside here in America, your house, car, toilet paper, everything, and anything you have were ALL purchased with currency that reads "In God We Trust" and this country was fathered/founded in prayer and Christianity with the law that all are free to believe what they want to believe. This country's pledge states "...One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all..." and every court proceeding begins with an oath to the Bible to speak honestly throughout the proceeding. If you're in Sydney (as your profile says), I have no idea what that currency is based off or their foundations. Again, I apologize for my lack of education on those matters.

I made a joke to FL because he said my "salad bar" analogy sent "shutters down his spine" I think is what he said... maybe he meant "shivers?" I thought it was funny and so added my goosebumps comment. I don't know why he kind of resonates with me, I guess it's because, thus far, he's been the kindest, most open poster to me here since I joined.

One cannot compare non-denominational Christian beliefs to those of Catholics because there are distinct differences, especially in your characterization of how sin is regarded and in relation to love. I have no knowledge of bishops or sainthoods. Our God gives us free will to make any decisions we want to make, He holds nothing against us in regards to loving him or not as far as His loving us because He is constant, never changing, whereas, we can be/act all over the place. And nothing we do or don't do affects his forgiveness, but that's not how Catholics believe or interpret the Bible and what they do is none of my business. God is love, therefore, if you love a mustang convertible, God is in you. If you love your children (don't know if you have any). if you love yourself, or have ever loved anyone else, your creator's love is in you. I know you find it hilarious that I see that love in you, but I still do; it's still quite evident, but I don't want to offend you or pick a scab, or be a thorn in your side with any of this.

I can only relay to you from the person I am today trying to explain Christian beliefs, which does not mean I'm on a fence. I am not. I'm also not trying to cram anything down your throat because I, myself, hate that and have been on the receiving end of that in my life from well-meaning Christians. No human being is perfect. But I don't hold what some do against the whole lot of them, not even Catholics, although I've had some very bad experiences with that form of organized religion as many people have as well in our society.

On the points you made, well... the Bible tells us to "take captive every thought to make it obedient" and "whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things," therefore, it's clear the battle is in our minds in regards to faith, suffering, agony. But, it takes practice to control one's thoughts and no one teaches this to their children (how to do it) so we're conditioned to believe what we think even when our thoughts have no basis in truth. No sees things completely clearly through their thoughts, we can only know what we see/experience without knowing/seeing the bigger picture involved. Much agony begins with our minds, because our thoughts are constantly running, if we don't take control of them, they run rampant with our egos like wild horses, & that causes us trouble. We don't think with our hearts, as quoted, we think with our minds.... but our minds are playgrounds. The quotes you mentioned remind me of this - conscious thought running a muck. Somewhere in the stillness of ourselves, for instance when we meditate or just before we awaken from a deep sleep, before all the mind chatter begins, that's when our Source, our Creator has a chance to speak to us, prompt us, inspire us, because the rest of the time we're reading things on the internet and taking in all kinds of crap into our minds. But then also, there are things we just know because we know and we can't explain how/why we know something, for instance, at a pertinent moment, or how/why we can sometimes find just the right words, sometimes we can't. What do you call all of that, random chance? Is all of life just random to you? I'm really interested in how you explain these things. I'm also really interested in the questions I asked you, which you answered none of. I'm sincerely interested. But if you want to keep the conversation at this other level, that's fine, too.

We're not "bound to a burden of sin" we are free to sin or not to sin, it's "free will." We are free to love or not to love. Whether we ask for forgiveness or not, we already know everything we do is already known & it is known with understanding, not with condemnation. That's the whole point of Jesus, to set us all free. He was sent to represent [to become the human form of] unconditional love. All of the chains, burdens, the yokes around our necks, the yokes we tie to each other, none of that is about God or Jesus. People who do not really know the Bible believe it's all rules, regulations, punishments, etc... when it's really a book of love & guidance. But just as you can't know what light is unless you've experienced darkness, there is much contrast in the Bible to make significant points to us. And through contrast in life as well, that's how you know what you enjoy, love, want, and desire. If you never knew desire, you couldn't know what desire fulfilled felt like. What's so ironic about your complete distaste for "religion" is your actual limited scope of understanding it while really believing you understand it completely. I've lived life long enough to know you will experience the contradiction of your own beliefs and it will have nothing to do with me or anything I've typed here, or anything on MS. Life is contradiction, the Bible is not, it is our guide out of contradictions. It doesn't bound one's heart to doctrines, it frees us from that.

That's why every prisoner is sent to his cell with a Bible. Bibles are the one item a prisoner can have even if under severe solitary confinement. Because even though the person is physically locked up, no longer free to roam, commit crimes, etc., they can find freedom in the words of that book, and they can then endure incarceration, even solitary incarceration.

My mother uses your same argument that women are subservient in the Bible to explain her own distaste of anything having to do with Scripture. You said it depicts women as "the helper" to men, but it does not. That is not true. I'm a feminist, I'm for all equality of every kind. And I have not been offended by anything said, in context, in the Bible. It clearly states one gender is not of more importance than the other, all throughout it. People typically take scripture out of context and apply different meanings to it than the writer intended. That's kind of the role of a pastor, someone who's studied it so intensely, completely in context, that they can relay the meanings of the words as they were intended, not for evil or to justify anything horrid. They can, and do, sometimes miss the mark. Others have such a gift of discernment that they rarely distort the meanings.

Consider the Apostle Paul’s teachings: “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord” (Ephesians 5:22). A husband with a tendency to look down on women as subservient might use this passage as an excuse for continuing to put himself first. But such a man would be completely missing the point of the passage. Paul said that everyone should be submissive, not just wives as proven by the verse just before it which states “Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God” (Ephesians 5:21), that is, wives submit to husbands and husbands submit to wives. The Christian way is through humility. We're all in this, equally, together. We're described as "one body" with different parts, all of which are important and dependent on the other.

The Bible states that neither man nor woman has a special advantage. Christ does not choose men in preference to women or relate to men more directly. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 4:2. It is true that women are dependent upon men, but it is equally true that men are dependent upon women. “Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 11:11). They are “heirs together to the grace of life” (1 Peter 3:7). “God created man in His own image…male and female” (Genesis 1:27, 5:1-2). Both of them together are the equal likeness of God.

May you rest freely in "great secularism." Our country is free and none of it has come about without spirituality and moral compass. I hope we can still be friends. I hold nothing against you.

[floridaorange]

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Yes "shivers." , I combined "shuttering at the word" with "shivers down my spine" to really drive my point home . Kiwi you've gotten me interested in reading the Bible, perhaps for the first time in my life. Having grown up hearing passages read by old men and women in Sunday school, it just never really sounded very interesting, perhaps because I was more focused on kid stuff. But the truth is, as you've pointed out, there is so much wisdom in the Bible.

While on vacation recently in NC my parents really wanted my wife and I and son to go to church with them at this old church built in the 1800's that they attend. It was the first time I had ever heard a female pastor deliver a sermon, in my life. She was Duke educated and a really strong communicator. It was a presbyterian church. One thing I liked was the openness and congregation participation. Sitting there and just listening sometimes, especially to one person can get old fast for me, unless they are really engaging. That's probably partially due to my dad being a professional speaker and me being an actor . Anyway, /tangeant.

[KiwiTollway]

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^^ Cool!! You just never know where inspiration comes from next.... a woman pastor in an 1800s built Presbyterian Church, or maybe a Kiwi shows you something you hadn't seen before, well ok then, great!! It's all good! Lots of gender equality throughout the Bible, absolutely, and lots and lots of freedom from all forms of oppression, even those that exist only in our minds.

Education + strong communication skills + openness = great combination to me as well. Add awesome music and I'd probably love that church too!

[floridaorange]

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You just never know where inspiration comes from next....

that's a quote from a short film I did actually... the other part being "it strikes when it wants to."

[KiwiTollway]

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weird coincidence.... no such thing!! wish it struck more often though!

maybe it's everywhere, we just have to see it?

[Illuminate]

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In your first appearances Kiwi, I use to think you were an alias of Florida. Using the same smileys, only responding to his posts, liking the same artists, and all of this at at time when he was getting bombarded for ordering a table in a night club. But only our creator knows. He knows everything from your sick perverted thoughts, to commanding your illiterate methods of cognitive dissonance.