More WMD Artillery shells found

[cosmo]

I wonder why the press isn't intrested in this news? They turn a blind eye to this, the reason we went to war, and give Al Gore front page headlines as to how there were no WMD in Iraq, and how there were no ties between the two groups. Who even cares about the truth anymore?

https://www.newsmax.com

Friday, June 25, 2004 11:36 a.m. EDT
Iraq Survey Chief: More WMD Found

The head of the U.S. team conducting the search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq announced on Thursday that his group has uncovered at least ten more artillery shells filled with banned chemical weapons and is finding new WMD evidence "almost every day."

"We've found ten or twelve Sarin and Mustard rounds," said Charles Duelfer, who replaced David Kay as head of the Iraq survey group earlier this year after Kay concluded that WMDs were unlikely to be found.


"We're not sure how many more are out there that we haven't found," Duelfer added, in an exclusive interview with Fox News Channel's Brit Hume. "There are still surprises out there. We're finding things and we're getting reports of hidden caches almost every day which we have to investigate."

Last month, the Pentagon confirmed that the first of the Iraq WMD findings - two shells suspected of containing deadly chemical weapons - were indeed filled with Sarin and Mustard gas.

Still, despite the mounting tally of confirmed WMD findings, administration critics continue to insist that "Bush lied" about the presence of such weapons in Iraq before the war.

Duelfer told Fox that even if the shells had degraded over time, they were still capable of killing "dozens" of people. He warned that both soldiers and civilians in Iraq should carry gas masks and have access to chem-bio suits.

Before joining the U.S. team, Duelfer was a U.N. weapons inspector and was among the few who had investigated Saddam's top secret terrorist training camp Salman Pak.

In 2001 he confirmed that elite Fedayeen troops were conducting airplane hijacking drills aboard a parked Boeing 707, dismissing claims from Iraqi officials that what he saw was "counterterrorism training."

"Of course we automatically took out the word 'counter'," Duelfer told the London Observer. "I'm surprised that people seem to be shocked that there should be terror camps in Iraq."

[Balanc3]

If the Dems allowed the truth to be told then there would be no election cause they would not have a chance. One thing about watching the television for news is that it only keeps you up to date with current events and speak nothing about history. To really know the truth you have to dig deep to find it. Look past everything on the news (election, election, election) and then you have accurate information and history that has not been re-written.

good find

[darkmark]

Quoting newsmax is even worse than quoting FOXNEWS...

[cosmo]

Quoting newsmax is even worse than quoting FOXNEWS...

Well maybe if CNN, The Associated Press, etc would do a piece on the find I would post it. Too bad you have to go to websites that have a right slant to get the news that contradicts their agenda.

I saw the story on another website as well. Worldnetdaily. Go figure.

It just amazes me that information like this is not mainstream news. If it were about something else, every press agency would be on it even though the story were still in the area of speculation.

[neoee]

Maybe I'm the only one but I would consider 'WMD' to be nuclear or neutron bombs, missles ect. Something that had the potential of wiping out a large city.

If the Bush administration was willing to wage a war over chemical weapons and thats part of the defination of 'WMD', then great they found what they were looking for and this only strenghtens their cause. But it seems a bit unjustified to me to spend the money and lose the lives we have over a quantity of chemicals 'capable of killing dozens" of people.'

If our intention was to go there looking for nuclear weapons or something as destructive or in a quantity equal to cause that level of destruction, and we didn't find it, I can write that off as a mistake. This however is like bringing in the swat team for someone shoplifting a candy bar.

[FM]

Maybe I'm the only one but I would consider 'WMD' to be nuclear or neutron bombs, missles ect. Something that had the potential of wiping out a large city.

If the Bush administration was willing to wage a war over chemical weapons and thats part of the defination of 'WMD', then great they found what they were looking for and this only strenghtens their cause. But it seems a bit unjustified to me to spend the money and lose the lives we have over a quantity of chemicals 'capable of killing dozens" of people.'

If our intention was to go there looking for nuclear weapons or something as destructive or in a quantity equal to cause that level of destruction, and we didn't find it, I can write that off as a mistake. This however is like bringing in the swat team for someone shoplifting a candy bar.

AMEN...seriously, Bush et al made it sound like we were going to find large quanitites of bombs capable of taking out an entire country...and all that was found have been scrap metal...

I wonder sometimes...

[delirious]

Re: More WMD Artillery shells found

I wonder why the press isn't intrested in this news? They turn a blind eye to this, the reason we went to war, and give Al Gore front page headlines as to how there were no WMD in Iraq, and how there were no ties between the two groups. Who even cares about the truth anymore?

Explain to us all how 10 artillery shells are "weapons of mass destruction."

That term doesn't mean mere ordinance and a few shells left over from the Iran-Iraq war, but the ability to launch them and inflict "mass destruction". I'm not sure why any war-defenders would want to bring up the WMD issue now since it's been so utterly discredited. Colin Powell admitted to using fabricated evidence at the U.N which was possibly provided by Iran, of all nations.

How the United States should react if Iraq acquired WMD. "The first line of defense...should be a clear and classical statement of deterrence-if they do acquire WMD, their weapons will be unusable because any attempt to use them will bring national obliteration."

Condoleeza Rice
US National Security Advisor
2/1/2000

Here she admits Iraq's WMDs aren't really of great concern. Maybe she "changed her opinion" after Bush decided that he'd invade even if Saddam and his henchmen left the country.

For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on.

Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense, 5/28/2003

Here he admits it was just a "bureaucratic" reason given for the invasion.

Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have

George W. Bush, 10/5/2002

So far, none of those "facilities" have been found.

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.

George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, 1/28/2003

500 tons?

Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that [Saddam] has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.

Dick Cheney, Meet The Press, 3/16/2003

No Iraqi nukes found yet

It was a surprise to me then - it remains a surprise to me now - that we have not uncovered weapons, as you say, in some of the forward dispersal sites. Believe me, it's not for lack of trying. We've been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwaiti border and Baghdad, but they're simply not there.

Lt. Gen. James Conway

"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading," Powell said on NBC's "Meet the Press" program. "And for that I am disappointed, and I regret it."

[brakada]

And does anyone remember how the Bush administration claimed the UN inspectors had enough time to uncover the weapons. Now the US have "total" control of Iraq and can trully access every building and piece of land in Iraq, but they found only a couple of bomb shells. I think even the inspectors could have done that in over a year.

[cosmo]

How are ten artillery shells of sarin 'weapons of mass destruction'?

One drop of sarin will kill you. Smuggle one gallon into a new york subway, there is no telling how many people you could kill. Let alone shut down every subway here in America. You could put any given amount of sarin into the water system. It's been proven that Saddam agreed to train terrorists in chemical weapons capability.

It never was about wiping out a whole city.. You're over-exaggerating.

You people are trying to minimize the situation, when Iraq was clearly a freelance sponsor of hatred against Israel and the west.

[neoee]

How are ten artillery shells of sarin 'weapons of mass destruction'?

One drop of sarin will kill you. Smuggle one gallon into a new york subway, there is no telling how many people you could kill. Let alone shut down every subway here in America. You could put any given amount of sarin into the water system. It's been proven that Saddam agreed to train terrorists in chemical weapons capability.

It never was about wiping out a whole city.. You're over-exaggerating.

You people are trying to minimize the situation, when Iraq was clearly a freelance sponsor of hatred against Israel and the west.

I'm not in any way trying to minimize this finding but due to the nature of chemical weapons I would suspect they would be relatively easy to produce, in almost any location and probably in a short period of time. This is not the case with nuclear weapons. The materials required to produce such a device are much more controlled and you aren't going to be able to produce it as quickly or easily. I simply want to point out that a clandestine lab could probably sarin, so why are we waging a war over it in the quantities that we have seen?

Now for my disclaimer: I'm no expert in chemical weapons. Maybe sarin takes years to make and the chemicals required to compose it are only available on Mars. My comment is based on pure speculation. I will however say that since sarin was first produced in Germany in 1938 as a pesticide, this is likely not the case.

[davetlv]

Re: More WMD Artillery shells found

Explain to us all how 10 artillery shells are "weapons of mass destruction."

That term doesn't mean mere ordinance and a few shells left over from the Iran-Iraq war, but the ability to launch them and inflict "mass destruction". I'm not sure why any war-defenders would want to bring up the WMD issue now since it's been so utterly discredited. Colin Powell admitted to using fabricated evidence at the U.N which was possibly provided by Iran, of all nations.

I might be wrong here but lets take the definition of WMD as exactly that; weapons that cause mass destruction. Simple. No further explainations needed. I'm sure the 5000+ Kurds from Halabja who were butchered by Sadaam did not make a difference between chemical/nerve agents and a nuclear capability.

Such agents can be fired from either scud or kassam rockets, both of which Iraq has/had. The fact that they might not be able to reach the US or Europe is irrelevant.

[mylexicon]

I'm not in any way trying to minimize this finding but due to the nature of chemical weapons I would suspect they would be relatively easy to produce, in almost any location and probably in a short period of time.

You just stated the exact reason we thought U.N. inspections were
futile and military recourse was necessary. And i don't think i've ever heard anyone
put it better. WMD can be made in a large basement. Which is exactly
what we think happened. Thats why we keep finding tens of thousands of
documents at every scientist's house. It appears as though the entire program
was decentralized then destroyed, hidden, or transported when we attacked.
Thats why we waited only a few months before attacking......unfortunately it
may have been too long.

Explain to us all how 10 artillery shells are "weapons of mass destruction."

If you saw the size of the Iraqi gun we found pointed at Israel during Gulf
War I, you might have a little more respect for Iraqi artillery ambitions.

The modernized variant of the cannon is reportedly able to fire the biological, chemical and even nuclear shells and hit the targets in Kuwait, Bahrain, Turkey and Israel. These are the countries, which are supposed to be included in the new anti-terrorist coalition. They also fear, lest they should become a target for Saddam-s super-weapon.

taken from: don't know how good the source is but it echoes most of the stuff i've heard about he gun.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/2002/01/22/25911.html

I do know that the gun was designed by Gerald Bull, the Canadian physicist.
I'm pretty sure he was the one who also experimented with shooting satellites
into space using super guns; a very cheap alternative to the way we do it now.

yep gerald bull was the one doing the super space cannon research, too bad
he fucked with Moussad, he probably would have been successful.

http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/jan/d20-004.shtml

Ah finally a pic. This is the Baby Babylon Cannon, notice how small the trucks
are in the background.

[delirious]

Explain to us all how 10 artillery shells are "weapons of mass destruction."

If you saw the size of the Iraqi gun we found pointed at Israel during Gulf
War I, you might have a little more respect for Iraqi artillery ambitions.

But how many of those guns have been found in Gulf War II?

A weapon isn't mere artilery but something to fire it and cause "mass destruction". How do 10 old artilery shells cause mass destruction?

And, finally, do you think the UN would've okayed the invasion for a few shells left over from the Iran-Iraq war?

"He [Saddam Hussein] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
Secretary of State Colin Powell during a visit to Cairo, Egypt, February 24, 2001

[delirious]

You just stated the exact reason we thought U.N. inspections were
futile and military recourse was necessary. And i don't think i've ever heard anyone
put it better. WMD can be made in a large basement. Which is exactly
what we think happened. Thats why we keep finding tens of thousands of
documents at every scientist's house. It appears as though the entire program
was decentralized then destroyed, hidden, or transported when we attacked.
Thats why we waited only a few months before attacking......unfortunately it
may have been too long.

Hmmm... that contradicts what your defence minister was saying at the time.

"We know where they are. They?re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
Rumsfeld

[delirious]

[quote="delirious"]

Explain to us all how 10 artillery shells are "weapons of mass destruction."

If you saw the size of the Iraqi gun we found pointed at Israel during Gulf
War I, you might have a little more respect for Iraqi artillery ambitions.

Iraqi artillery ambitions? Ha ha ha! We're not talking about "ambitions" but the facts on the ground. Try again.

How do 10 old artilery shells cause mass destruction?

The United States military definition of WMDs is fairly narrowly drawn:

In ARMS-CONTROL usage, WEAPONS that are capable of a high order of destruction or of being used in such a manner as to destroy large numbers of people. They can be nuclear, chemical, biological or radiological

Facts on File Dictionary of Military Science

According to your logic is a machine gun also a WMD since it has the ability to kill thousands more people than a few, old artilery shells?

And, finally, do you think the UN would've okayed the invasion for a few shells left over from the Iran-Iraq war when Bush had made it clear that he was talking about "25,000 liters of anthrax ... 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin ... materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent ... upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents ... several mobile biological weapons labs ... thousands of Iraqi security personnel?"

He [Saddam Hussein] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors.

Secretary of State Colin Powell during a visit to Cairo, Egypt, February 24, 2001