A big mistake

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  • Dialectic
    Fresh Peossy
    • Apr 2005
    • 18

    A big mistake

    Transcript
    A Big Mistake: by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
    Before the US House of Representatives, January 26, 2005
    America?s policy of foreign intervention, while still debated in the
    early 20th century, is today accepted as conventional wisdom by both
    political parties. But what if the overall policy is a colossal mistake,
    a major error in judgment? Not just bad judgment regarding when and where
    to impose ourselves, but the entire premise that we have a moral right to
    meddle in the affairs of others? Think of the untold harm done by years
    of fighting ? hundreds of thousands of American casualties, hundreds of
    thousands of foreign civilian casualties, and unbelievable human and
    economic costs. What if it was all needlessly borne by the American
    people? If we do conclude that grave foreign policy errors have been
    made, a very serious question must be asked: What would it take to change
    our policy to one more compatible with a true republic?s goal of peace,
    commerce, and friendship with all nations? Is it not possible that
    Washington?s admonition to avoid entangling alliances is sound advice
    even today?
    In medicine mistakes are made ? man is fallible. Misdiagnoses are made,
    incorrect treatments are given, and experimental trials of medicines are
    advocated. A good physician understands the imperfections in medical
    care, advises close follow-ups, and double-checks the diagnosis,
    treatment, and medication. Adjustments are made to ensure the best
    results. But what if a doctor never checks the success or failure of a
    treatment, or ignores bad results and assumes his omnipotence ? refusing
    to concede that the initial course of treatment was a mistake? Let me
    assure you, the results would not be good. Litigation and the loss of
    reputation in the medical community place restraints on this type of
    bullheaded behavior.
    Sadly, though, when governments, politicians, and bureaucrats make
    mistakes and refuse to reexamine them, there is little the victims can do
    to correct things. Since the bully pulpit and the media propaganda
    machine are instrumental in government cover-ups and deception, the final
    truth emerges slowly, and only after much suffering. The arrogance of
    some politicians, regulators, and diplomats actually causes them to
    become even more aggressive and more determined to prove themselves
    right, to prove their power is not to be messed with by never admitting a
    mistake. Truly, power corrupts!
    The unwillingness to ever reconsider our policy of foreign intervention,
    despite obvious failures and shortcomings over the last 50 years, has
    brought great harm to our country and our liberty. Historically,
    financial realities are the ultimate check on nations bent on empire.
    Economic laws ultimately prevail over bad judgment. But tragically, the
    greater the wealth of a country, the longer the flawed policy lasts.
    We?ll probably not be any different.
    We are still a wealthy nation, and our currency is still trusted by the
    world, yet we are vulnerable to some harsh realities about our true
    wealth and the burden of our future commitments. Overwhelming debt and
    the precarious nature of the dollar should serve to restrain our
    determined leaders, yet they show little concern for deficits. Rest
    assured, though, the limitations of our endless foreign adventurism and
    spending will become apparent to everyone at some point in time.

    Since 9/11, a lot of energy and money have gone into efforts ostensibly
    designed to make us safer. Many laws have been passed and many dollars
    have been spent. Whether or not we?re better off is another question.
    Today we occupy two countries in the Middle East. We have suffered over
    20,000 casualties, and caused possibly 100,000 civilian casualties in
    Iraq. We have spent over $200 billion in these occupations, as well as
    hundreds of billions of dollars here at home hoping to be safer. We?ve
    created the Department of Homeland Security, passed the Patriot Act, and
    created a new super CIA agency.
    Our government now is permitted to monitor the Internet, to read our
    mail, to search us without proper search warrants, to develop a national
    ID card, and to investigate what people are reading in libraries.
    Ironically, illegal aliens flow into our country and qualify for driving
    licenses and welfare benefits with little restraint.
    These issues are discussed, but nothing has been as highly visible to us
    as the authoritarianism we accept at the airport. The creation of the
    Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has intruded on the privacy
    of all airline travelers, and there is little evidence that we are safer
    for it. Driven by fear, we have succumbed to the age-old temptation to
    sacrifice liberty on the pretense of obtaining security. Love of
    security, unfortunately, all too often vanquishes love of liberty.
    Unchecked fear of another 9/11-type attack constantly preoccupies our
    leaders and most of our citizens, and drives the legislative attack on
    our civil liberties. It?s frightening to see us doing to ourselves what
    even bin Laden never dreamed he could accomplish with his suicide
    bombers.
    We don?t understand the difference between a vague threat of terrorism
    and the danger of a guerilla war. One prompts us to expand and
    nationalize domestic law enforcement while limiting the freedoms of all
    Americans. The other deals with understanding terrorists like bin Laden,
    who declared war against us in 1998. Not understanding the difference
    makes it virtually impossible to deal with the real threats. We are
    obsessed with passing new laws to make our country safe from a terrorist
    attack. This confusion about the cause of the 9/11 attacks, the fear they
    engendered, and the willingness to sacrifice liberty prompts many to
    declare their satisfaction with the inconveniences and even humiliation
    at our nation?s airports.
    There are always those in government who are anxious to increase its
    power and authority over the people. Strict adherence to personal privacy
    annoys those who promote a centralized state.
    It?s no surprise to learn that many of the new laws passed in the
    aftermath of 9/11 had been proposed long before that date. The attacks
    merely provided an excuse to do many things previously proposed by
    dedicated statists.
    All too often government acts perversely, professing to advance liberty
    while actually doing the opposite. Dozens of new bills passed since 9/11
    promise to protect our freedoms and our security. In time we will realize
    there is little chance our security will be enhanced or our liberties
    protected.
    The powerful and intrusive TSA certainly will not solve our problems.
    Without a full discussion, greater understanding, and ultimately a change
    in the foreign policy that incites those who declared war against us, no
    amount of pat-downs at airports will suffice. Imagine the harm done, the
    staggering costs, and the loss of liberty if the next 20 years pass and
    airplanes are never employed by terrorists. Even if there is a
    possibility that airplanes will be used to terrorize us, TSA?s bullying
    will do little to prevent it. Patting down old women and little kids in
    airports cannot possibly make us safer!
    TSA cannot protect us from another attack and it is not the solution. It
    serves only to make us all more obedient and complacent toward government
    intrusions into our lives.
    The airport mess has been compounded by other problems, which we fail to
    recognize. Most assume the government has the greatest responsibility for
    making private aircraft travel safe. But this assumption only ignores
    mistakes made before 9/11, when the government taught us to not resist,
    taught us that airline personnel could not carry guns, and that the
    government would be in charge of security. Airline owners became
    complacent and dependent upon the government.
    After 9/11 we moved in the wrong direction by allowing total government
    control and a political takeover by the TSA ? which was completely
    contrary to the proposition that private owners have the ultimate
    responsibility to protect their customers.
    Discrimination laws passed during the last 40 years ostensibly fuel the
    Transportation Secretary?s near obsession with avoiding the appearance of
    discrimination toward young Muslim males. Instead TSA seemingly targets
    white children and old women. We have failed to recognize that a safety
    policy by a private airline is quite a different thing from government
    agents blindly obeying anti-discrimination laws.
    Governments do not have a right to use blanket discrimination, such as
    that which led to incarceration of Japanese Americans in World War II.
    However, local law-enforcement agencies should be able to target their
    searches if the description of a suspect is narrowed by sex, race, or
    religion.
    We are dealing with an entirely different matter when it comes to safety
    on airplanes. The federal government should not be involved in local law
    enforcement, and has no right to discriminate. Airlines, on the other
    hand, should be permitted to do whatever is necessary to provide safety.
    Private firms ? long denied the right ? should have a right to
    discriminate. Fine restaurants, for example, can require that shoes and
    shirts be worn for service in their establishments. The logic of this
    remaining property right should permit more sensible security checks at
    airports. The airlines should be responsible for the safety of their
    property, and liable for it as well. This is not only the responsibility
    of the airlines, but it is a civil right that has long been denied them
    and other private companies.
    The present situation requires the government to punish some by targeting
    those individuals who clearly offer no threat. Any airline that tries to
    make travel safer and happens to question a larger number of young Muslim
    males than the government deems appropriate can be assessed huge fines.
    To add insult to injury, the fines collected from airlines are used for
    forced sensitivity training of pilots who do their very best, under the
    circumstances, to make flying safer by restricting the travel of some
    individuals. We have embarked on a process that serves no logical
    purpose. While airline safety suffers, personal liberty is diminished and
    costs skyrocket.
    If we?re willing to consider a different foreign policy, we should ask
    ourselves a few questions:
    What if the policies of foreign intervention, entangling alliances,
    policing the world, nation building, and spreading our values through
    force are deeply flawed?
    What if it is true that Saddam Hussein never had weapons of mass
    destruction?
    What if it is true that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were never
    allies?
    What if it is true that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein did nothing to
    enhance our national security?
    What if our current policy in the Middle East leads to the overthrow of
    our client oil states in the region?
    What if the American people really knew that more than 20,000 American
    troops have suffered serious casualties or died in the Iraq war, and 9%
    of our forces already have been made incapable of returning to battle?
    What if it turns out there are many more guerrilla fighters in Iraq than
    our government admits?
    What if there really have been 100,000 civilian Iraqi casualties, as some
    claim, and what is an acceptable price for ?doing good??
    What if Rumsfeld is replaced for the wrong reasons, and things become
    worse under a Defense Secretary who demands more troops and an expansion
    of the war?
    What if we discover that, when they do vote, the overwhelming majority of
    Iraqis support Islamic (Sharia) law over western secular law, and want
    our troops removed?
    What if those who correctly warned of the disaster awaiting us in Iraq
    are never asked for their opinion of what should be done now?
    What if the only solution for Iraq is to divide the country into three
    separate regions, recognizing the principle of self-determination while
    rejecting the artificial boundaries created in 1918 by non-Iraqis?
    What if it turns out radical Muslims don?t hate us for our freedoms, but
    rather for our policies in the Middle East that directly affected Arabs
    and Muslims?
    What if the invasion and occupation of Iraq actually distracted from
    pursuing and capturing Osama bin Laden?
    What if we discover that democracy can?t be spread with force of arms?
    What if democracy is deeply flawed, and instead we should be talking
    about liberty, property rights, free markets, the rule of law, localized
    government, weak centralized government, and self-determination promoted
    through persuasion, not force?
    What if Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda actually welcomed our invasion and
    occupation of Arab/Muslim Iraq as proof of their accusations against us,
    and it served as a magnificent recruiting tool for them?
    What if our policy greatly increased and prolonged our vulnerability to
    terrorists and guerilla attacks both at home and abroad?
    What if the Pentagon, as reported by its Defense Science Board, actually
    recognized the dangers of our policy before the invasion, and their
    warnings were ignored or denied?
    What if the argument that by fighting over there, we won?t have to fight
    here, is wrong, and the opposite is true?
    What if we can never be safer by giving up some of our freedoms?
    What if the principle of pre-emptive war is adopted by Russia, China,
    Israel, India, Pakistan, and others, ?justified? by current U.S. policy?
    What if pre-emptive war and pre-emptive guilt stem from the same flawed
    policy of authoritarianism, though we fail to recognize it?
    What if Pakistan is not a trustworthy ally, and turns on us when
    conditions deteriorate?
    What if plans are being laid to provoke Syria and/or Iran into actions
    that would be used to justify a military response and pre-emptive war
    against them?
    What if our policy of democratization of the Middle East fails, and ends
    up fueling a Russian-Chinese alliance that we regret ? an alliance not
    achieved even at the height of the Cold War?
    What if the policy forbidding profiling at our borders and airports is
    deeply flawed?
    What if presuming the guilt of a suspected terrorist without a trial
    leads to the total undermining of constitutional protections for American
    citizens when arrested?
    What if we discover the army is too small to continue policies of
    pre-emption and nation-building? What if a military draft is the only way
    to mobilize enough troops?
    What if the ?stop-loss? program is actually an egregious violation of
    trust and a breach of contract between the government and soldiers? What
    if it actually is a backdoor draft, leading to unbridled cynicism and
    rebellion against a voluntary army and generating support for a draft of
    both men and women? Will lying to troops lead to rebellion and anger
    toward the political leadership running the war?
    What if the Pentagon?s legal task-force opinion that the President is not
    bound by international or federal law regarding torture stands
    unchallenged, and sets a precedent which ultimately harms Americans,
    while totally disregarding the moral, practical, and legal arguments
    against such a policy?
    What if the intelligence reform legislation ? which gives us bigger, more
    expensive bureaucracy ? doesn?t bolster our security, and distracts us
    from the real problem of revamping our interventionist foreign policy?
    What if we suddenly discover we are the aggressors, and we are losing an
    unwinnable guerrilla war?
    What if we discover, too late, that we can?t afford this war ? and that
    our policies have led to a dollar collapse, rampant inflation, high
    interest rates, and a severe economic downturn?
    Why do I believe these are such important questions? Because the #1
    function of the federal government ? to provide for national security ?
    has been severely undermined. On 9/11 we had a grand total of 14 aircraft
    in place to protect the entire U.S. mainland, all of which proved useless
    that day. We have an annual DOD budget of over $400 billion, most of
    which is spent overseas in over 100 different countries. On 9/11 our Air
    Force was better positioned to protect Seoul, Tokyo, Berlin, and London
    than it was to protect Washington D.C. and New York City.
    Moreover, our ill-advised presence in the Middle East and our decade-long
    bombing of Iraq served only to incite the suicidal attacks of 9/11.
    Before 9/11 our CIA ineptly pursued bin Laden, whom the Taliban was
    protecting. At the same time, the Taliban was receiving significant
    support from Pakistan ? our ?trusted ally? that received millions of
    dollars from the United States. We allied ourselves with both bin Laden
    and Hussein in the 1980s, only to regret it in the 1990s.And it?s safe to
    say we have used billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars in the last 50 years
    pursuing this contradictory, irrational, foolish, costly, and very
    dangerous foreign policy.
    Policing the world, spreading democracy by force, nation building, and
    frequent bombing of countries that pose no threat to us ? while leaving
    the homeland and our borders unprotected ? result from a foreign policy
    that is contradictory and not in our self-interest.
    I hardly expect anyone in Washington to pay much attention to these
    concerns. If I?m completely wrong in my criticisms, nothing is lost
    except my time and energy expended in efforts to get others to reconsider
    our foreign policy.
    But the bigger question is:
    What if I?m right, or even partially right, and we urgently need to
    change course in our foreign policy for the sake of our national and
    economic security, yet no one pays attention?
    For that a price will be paid. Is it not worth talking about?
    Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.



    Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security - Benjamin Franklin
  • Jenks
    I'm kind of a big deal.
    • Jun 2004
    • 10250

    #2
    Re: A big mistake

    nothing negative meant here dialectic...but how about giving us your political input on some of the numerous articles of other people's words you constantly post?

    Comment

    • Dialectic
      Fresh Peossy
      • Apr 2005
      • 18

      #3
      Re: A big mistake

      i believe that we should return to a constitutional form of government we were founded as a republic not a democracy i believe that we are living in a fascist police state and that most people are too apathetic or ignorant to realize it when the truth is right infront of them i believe that the "war on terror" is nothing more than an example of the hegelian dialectic and that osama bin laden is used as a boogeyman to scare people into giving up there freedom for a false sense of security our civil rights are attacked on a daily basis and no one seems to care i think that our president is a zionist elitist and that he is trying to bring us into world war 3 while at the same time trying to destroy every freedom that we enjoy i know that i post a lot of things that other people say but i am just trying to get the truth about what is really going on out there hope this answers your question

      Comment

      • natural.predator
        Fresh Peossy
        • May 2005
        • 27

        #4
        Re: A big mistake

        Originally posted by Dialectic
        i believe that we should return to a constitutional form of government we were founded as a republic not a democracy i believe that we are living in a fascist police state and that most people are too apathetic or ignorant to realize it when the truth is right infront of them i believe that the "war on terror" is nothing more than an example of the hegelian dialectic and that osama bin laden is used as a boogeyman to scare people into giving up there freedom for a false sense of security our civil rights are attacked on a daily basis and no one seems to care i think that our president is a zionist elitist and that he is trying to bring us into world war 3 while at the same time trying to destroy every freedom that we enjoy i know that i post a lot of things that other people say but i am just trying to get the truth about what is really going on out there hope this answers your question
        amen brother. that about sums up my beliefs too. take for instance the plane that accidentaly flew into the white house restricted airspace today. my belief is that was a thought out endeavor by our government so that fox news could play the coverage and have every old person quaking in their boots about the terrorists that are about to attack our country and try to hurt our president.

        here is some more to think about in an editorial by jim lampley posted on the huffington post.

        found here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblo...e.html#lampley

        --------------------------------------------------

        The Biggest Story of Our Lives

        At 5:00 p.m. Eastern time on Election Day, I checked the sportsbook odds in Las Vegas and via the offshore bookmakers to see the odds as of that moment on the Presidential election. John Kerry was a two-to-one favorite. You can look it up.

        People who have lived in the sports world as I have, bettors in particular, have a feel for what I am about to say about this: these people are extremely scientific in their assessments. These people understand which information to trust and which indicators to consult in determining where to place a dividing line to influence bets, and they are not in the business of being completely wrong. Oddsmakers consulted exit polling and knew what it meant and acknowledged in their oddsmaking at that moment that John Kerry was winning the election.

        And he most certainly was, at least if the votes had been fairly and legally counted. What happened instead was the biggest crime in the history of the nation, and the collective media silence which has followed is the greatest fourth-estate failure ever on our soil.

        Many of the participants in this blog have graduate school educations. It is damned near impossible to go to graduate school in any but the most artistic disciplines without having to learn about the basics of social research and its uncanny accuracy and validity. We know that professionally conceived samples simply do not yield results which vary six, eight, ten points from eventual data returns, thaty's why there are identifiable margins for error. We know that margins for error are valid, and that results have fallen within the error range for every Presidential election for the past fifty years prior to last fall. NEVER have exit polls varied by beyond-error margins in a single state, not since 1948 when this kind of polling began. In this past election it happened in ten states, all of them swing states, all of them in Bush's favor. Coincidence? Of course not.

        Karl Rove isn't capable of conceiving and executing such a grandiose crime? Wake up. They did it. The silence of traditional media on this subject is enough to establish their newfound bankruptcy. The revolution will have to start here. I challenge every other thinker at the Huffington Post: is there any greater imperative than to reverse this crime and reestablish democracy in America? Why the mass silence? Let's go to work with the circumstantial evidence, begin to narrow from the outside in, and find some witnesses who will turn. That's how they cracked Watergate. This is bigger, and I never dreamed I would say that in my baby boomer lifetime.

        Comment

        • thesightless
          Someone will marry me. Hell Yeah!
          • Jun 2004
          • 13567

          #5
          Re: A big mistake

          Originally posted by Dialectic
          iosama bin laden is used as a boogeyman to scare people into giving up there freedom for a false sense of security our civil rights are attacked on a daily basis and no one seems to care i think that our president is a zionist elitist and that he is trying to bring us into world war 3
          tell that to the families of the 3000+ people who died.
          i mean, i really liked running for my life across manhatten wondering if my father was alive. and then spending 3 weeks going to funerals for my uncle and friends........ and then having to spend the rest of that day fearing another attack or a bomb or a full out offensive from them.

          pull your head out of your ass if you think Bin laden isnt a threat. even after that just look at madrid. i hate all these people crying about us going after him. Iraq IS bullshit. but im all for ripping the whole fucking planet apart for bin laden.

          i mean what's next? we should have gotten involved in ww2 cuz the holocost didnt happen. people let thier beliefs blind them way too often. read up on both sides of the issue and maybe you can get a somewhat balanced report. there is no such thing as a nuetral party when it comes to reporting nowadays, so you have to read both ann coutlier and al frankin. if you only read one, you will have no idea of the truth. for every fact that a person like micheal moore and Sean hannity throw out there , there is a fact/figure that they ignore intentionally b/c it hurts thier view.

          i agree with the other parts though.
          your life is an occasion, rise to it.

          Join My Chant. new mix. april 09. dirty fuck house.
          download that. deep shit listed there

          my dick is its own superhero.

          Comment

          • natural.predator
            Fresh Peossy
            • May 2005
            • 27

            #6
            Re: A big mistake

            ya, but you know what, we brought that on ourselves. we armed him, we trained him, we turned him into what he is. nobody to blame but ourselves. im not trying to take anything away that happened on 911 but i believe that our current administration is bilking it for everything its worth to do whatever they want to do. sure be afraid, you should be afraid of a lot of things. dont let it lead your life and clutter your image of what our country should be.

            here are some good links to enlighten you on what the state of affairs of our country and foreign relations are.

            ------------------------------------

            With the United States Army deployed in a dozen hot spots around the world, on constant alert in Afghanistan, and taking casualties every day in Iraq, some current and former officers now say the army is on the verge of being "broken." They charge that the army is overstretched, demoralized, and may be unable to fight where and when the nation desires. This fall, FRONTLINE and the Washington Post join forces for an in-depth assessment of the state of the American army and the nation's military establishment. The program digs into the aggressive attempts to assert civilian control and remake the military by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his allies.

            With the United States Army deployed in a dozen hot spots around the world, on constant alert in Afghanistan, and taking casualties every day in Iraq, some current and former officers now say the army is on the verge of being "broken." They charge that the army is overstretched, demoralized, and may be unable to fight where and when the nation desires. This fall, FRONTLINE and the Washington Post join forces for an in-depth assessment of the state of the American army and the nation"s military establishment. The program digs into the aggressive attempts to assert civilian control and remake the military by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his allies.


            ------------------------------------

            FRONTLINE traces the roots of the Iraqi war back to the days immediately following September 11, when Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld ordered the creation of a special intelligence operation to quietly begin looking for evidence that would justify the war. The intelligence reports soon became a part of a continuing struggle between civilians in the Pentagon on one side and the CIA, State Department, and uniformed military on the other - a struggle that would lead to inadequate planning for the aftermath of the war, continuing violence, and mounting political problems for the president.



            ------------------------------------

            FRONTLINE examines the hidden story of what is really driving the Bush administration to war with Iraq. The investigation asks whether the publicly reported reasons--fear of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction or a desire to insure and protect America's access to oil--are only masking the real reason for the war. Through interviews with well-placed sources in and outside of the administration, FRONTLINE unravels a story known only to the Washington insiders.

            FRONTLINE examines the hidden story of what is really driving the Bush administration to war with Iraq. The investigation asks whether the publicly reported reasons--fear of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction or a desire to insure and protect America's access to oil--are only masking the real reason for the war. Through interviews with well-placed sources in and outside of the administration, FRONTLINE unravels a story known only to the Washington insiders.


            ------------------------------------

            Read about the bush doctrine and paul wolfowitz and you will see that your dog is being wagged. we are a bunch of cows herded in whatever direction this administration sees fit, and if you dont agree you are labeled a traitor, and enemy of the state, etc. you shouldnt take what you are fed and do some checking into things before yourself before you jump to conclusions that everything we are doing is right and good.

            Comment

            • thesightless
              Someone will marry me. Hell Yeah!
              • Jun 2004
              • 13567

              #7
              Re: A big mistake

              yo, i served in the ARMY. i was in former yugo. we did worse stuff there because it was hit and run. we bombed and left. at least nowadays we are still in iraq trying to give them some semblence of order and peace.

              and Clinton herded us as much as the retard is now. clinton did it through the economy though. bush uses security (obviously a factor post 9/11)
              clinton let us all think the economy was great, when in fact, it wasnt. its became so over inflated it was bound to pop. they were telling us that companies were worth 1 billion, when in fact they were more like half that. he was just fortunate that the bubble popped right at te end of his term. (read tech sector and accounting scandals.) think of how many people across the country lost thier pensions b/c the market was basically bullshit.

              every politician is full of shit, thats why they get elected, they tell people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. go look at thier history to see thier actions not thier words. thats why kerry lost last elec. he was a pathetic escuse of a senator. he never did anything, so people had no idea of his ideals or convictions. he easily would have won, and should have, if he actually did something when he was in office. the same shit with hillary, she hasnt done anything for NY and most NY'ers know it.
              your life is an occasion, rise to it.

              Join My Chant. new mix. april 09. dirty fuck house.
              download that. deep shit listed there

              my dick is its own superhero.

              Comment

              • fishingnut
                Addiction started
                • Nov 2004
                • 263

                #8
                Re: A big mistake

                Originally posted by natural.predator
                ya, but you know what, we brought that on ourselves. we armed him, we trained him, we turned him into what he is. nobody to blame but ourselves. im not trying to take anything away that happened on 911 but i believe that our current administration is bilking it for everything its worth to do whatever they want to do. sure be afraid, you should be afraid of a lot of things. dont let it lead your life and clutter your image of what our country should be.

                here are some good links to enlighten you on what the state of affairs of our country and foreign relations are.
                what?? we where going to stand there and let the rusians kill them all?
                Don't post anything you wouldn't want yo mamma or the 'feds' to read.

                Comment

                • natural.predator
                  Fresh Peossy
                  • May 2005
                  • 27

                  #9
                  Re: A big mistake

                  Originally posted by fishingnut
                  what?? we where going to stand there and let the rusians kill them all?
                  why not? thats what we did in the end anyway. its the same thing we did with the iraqis in the first war. we got all the way to saddams doorstep and backed off and handed over weapons to the shiites and watched them get slaughtered.

                  Comment

                  • natural.predator
                    Fresh Peossy
                    • May 2005
                    • 27

                    #10
                    Re: A big mistake

                    Originally posted by thesightless
                    yo, i served in the ARMY. i was in former yugo. we did worse stuff there because it was hit and run. we bombed and left. at least nowadays we are still in iraq trying to give them some semblence of order and peace.

                    and Clinton herded us as much as the retard is now. clinton did it through the economy though. bush uses security (obviously a factor post 9/11)
                    clinton let us all think the economy was great, when in fact, it wasnt. its became so over inflated it was bound to pop. they were telling us that companies were worth 1 billion, when in fact they were more like half that. he was just fortunate that the bubble popped right at te end of his term. (read tech sector and accounting scandals.) think of how many people across the country lost thier pensions b/c the market was basically bullshit.

                    every politician is full of shit, thats why they get elected, they tell people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. go look at thier history to see thier actions not thier words. thats why kerry lost last elec. he was a pathetic escuse of a senator. he never did anything, so people had no idea of his ideals or convictions. he easily would have won, and should have, if he actually did something when he was in office. the same shit with hillary, she hasnt done anything for NY and most NY'ers know it.
                    i agree that clinton wasnt a very good president either. clinton didnt make me a democrat though, its the principals involved in the party that make me a democrat. i dont know that kerry would have been any better than this current administration but at least some of our precious civil liberties would be intact. to really find a good president wed have to go back to FDR. and now our current president is taking away some of the very things this great man did.

                    Comment

                    • thesightless
                      Someone will marry me. Hell Yeah!
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 13567

                      #11
                      Re: A big mistake

                      two things

                      1. FDR was great, but i think reagan was a brilliant leader as well. he helped the entire world with the fall of the Bloc. and utilized the better parts of the republican ideals of keeping the gov't less involved and kept taxes and tariffs lower. also, he was embracing the democratic ideals of the civil libeties we speak of.

                      2. and if i have to carry a different type of ID, which i have to carry anyway (driver's liscence) , in order to take a step forward in ensuring i never have to witness another attack, then i have zero problems. and if you take it a different way and say civil liberties are being destroyed with whats going on in the detention camps in Cuba, then you should go ask those detainees what they feel about america and ask them why they were fighting for the former Taliban. whom shletered and supported the people who staged numerous attacks on innocents, not only in america, but places like Bali and other areas.

                      its not like we are living in say, Sudan or Iraq where the words ""Civil Liberties" are considered evil. think about the newspaper editor in Sudan who is about to be put to death because he wrote an article questioning the parantage of Mohammed. as a country, we have been given so much, and that fostered the idea of having it all, we forgot how the world really is. if you go to certain islands in South east asia on honeymoon dont forget to ttell your wife to only pack one- peice bathing suit and a skirt to wear over it, because the people there will have you jailed if your wife shows too much skin on the beach. :?
                      your life is an occasion, rise to it.

                      Join My Chant. new mix. april 09. dirty fuck house.
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                      Comment

                      • natural.predator
                        Fresh Peossy
                        • May 2005
                        • 27

                        #12
                        Re: A big mistake

                        1. Reagan was in the right place at the right time. His lower taxes almost destroyed our economy.

                        2. The ID isnt the only liberty that is being taken away. Here are a few.
                        • a. Voluntary disclosure of customer communications or records

                          b. "a political, social or other similar group whose public endorsement of acts of terrorist activity the Secretary of State has determined undermines United States efforts to reduce or eliminate terrorist activities" directly taken from the patriot act - this means that anybody whom the secretary of state determines goes against the us government, whether it be foreign terrorist, or a person like me who does not like what is happening in this country, can be labeled a terrorist. it is completely at the whim of condoleeza rice? you think that is safe?

                          c. MANDATORY DETENTION OF SUSPECTED TERRORISTS; HABEAS CORPUS; JUDICIAL REVIEW basically anybody can be locked up at any time, for indefinate time, without due process from the government.

                          d. The government is given the power to, without your knowledge, intercept all protected computer communications. with the patriot act any computer "which is used in interstate or foreign commerce or communication" is considered a protected computer. so basically since the web server i am typing on at this moment is in another state, this transmission can be intercepted by the government. any transmission of copyrighted material can be intercepted with out your knowledge. now, for one instance, think about the implifications of this outside of the scope of the government. we would all be paying some serious royalty fines.


                        you should really read up on the patriot act and what kind of power it is giving the government.

                        Comment

                        • thesightless
                          Someone will marry me. Hell Yeah!
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 13567

                          #13
                          Re: A big mistake

                          i have, and do you really think they are targeting everyone?

                          they only go after those who are actually deemed a threat. they arent tracing your emails.

                          do you really think its ok for organizations to support and encourage terrorist activities? Rummy isnt going after the every day organization. you word it as "against the US" when you should word it as "threatening the US". our country allows its own people to go against it. but attacking it is another story

                          and for the mandatory detention? would you really want people who were killing others and fighting for the sheltering of violent extremists on the streets, i dont. they dont have a thousand people down there whom were simply taken from the streets of Kabul. they are all people who gave a reason to be detained. but according to you , we can only arrest those who have explsoives strapped to them or are actively shooting at us.
                          your life is an occasion, rise to it.

                          Join My Chant. new mix. april 09. dirty fuck house.
                          download that. deep shit listed there

                          my dick is its own superhero.

                          Comment

                          • natural.predator
                            Fresh Peossy
                            • May 2005
                            • 27

                            #14
                            Re: A big mistake

                            read between the lines. the first step in targeting everybody is having the power to do so. thats what the patriot act does.

                            i will agree the patriot act has some great clauses to it, but my problem with it is extension it gives the already long arm of the goverment.

                            the tired old cliche of "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind. little by little we give up our freedoms and comforts to "keep our country safe" each baby step may not seem overtly bad. over time and generations each little step to loss of freedom becomes accepted. you look back years later and wonder where did it go wrong? how did we become and autocratic state.

                            Comment

                            • sammwalk
                              Gold Gabber
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 769

                              #15
                              Re: A big mistake

                              Originally posted by Dialectic
                              i believe that we should return to a constitutional form of government we were founded as a republic not a democracy i believe that we are living in a fascist police state and that most people are too apathetic or ignorant to realize it when the truth is right infront of them i believe that the "war on terror" is nothing more than an example of the hegelian dialectic and that osama bin laden is used as a boogeyman to scare people into giving up there freedom for a false sense of security our civil rights are attacked on a daily basis and no one seems to care i think that our president is a zionist elitist and that he is trying to bring us into world war 3 while at the same time trying to destroy every freedom that we enjoy i know that i post a lot of things that other people say but i am just trying to get the truth about what is really going on out there hope this answers your question
                              Dude, if anybody's going to read your posts, you need to use puncuation.

                              Police state the US is not. Will it be? It would take quite some time?I don't really think it's possible, given the diversity of people in the country. The USSR was a police state, as was Hitler's Germany. I see the country slowly dissolving over a hundred years, the compleceny of people accustomed to freedom gradually weaking the American ideal. For all of its misgivings, the domestic US is as far from a police state as one's going to get. Its foreign policy, on the other hand can be interpreted as slightly imperialist.

                              What I really think is that the current administration is incompetent; that, though there are smart people in power, they aren't smart enough and/or don't have the right plan as how to deal with foreign policy correctly. It's only a matter of time before the US military is superceded by another more determined opponent.

                              As for restrictions on freedom, there should be none. Nothing should change internally, because terrorism is not generated internally. Personally, avoiding a few major terrorist incidents is still not worth the erosion of freedom that can, in the end, wind up destroying the country.

                              Comment

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