Is Bush winning the war on terror?

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  • delirious
    Addiction started
    • Jun 2004
    • 288

    Is Bush winning the war on terror?

    The war on terror cannot be won by military force alone. Defeating
    terrorists requires allies, intelligence, and respect as well as the
    threat and implementation of physical force.

    The war on Afganhistan, despite it's links to the pipeline deal, was
    almost unanimously internationally respected. France and Germany
    immedately offered troops and still have a large presence in the
    country. Only 2 or 3 countries actually opposed the action.

    At the time, the biggest selling French paper had the headline "We
    are all Americans today."
    Around the world, people were overcome with
    grief from the tradgedy and world opinion of the United States was
    extremely high.

    Why Iraq was different

    According to numerous White House insiders, including Condi
    Rice, Bush had talked about invading Iraq in his very first security
    meeting. According to Richard Clarke, Bush asked if Iraq was involved
    directly after the 9/11 attacks.

    After Afghanistan, Bush talked about Iraq in the context of the 9/11
    attacks, saying that they'd changed everything and that the US could no
    longer accept potential threats.

    The reason given was the threat of weapons of mass destruction.
    The tie to terrorism was a lesser reason and regime change was
    barely mentioned... even denied by Ari Fleisher.

    The US then went to the United Nations and agreed to a resolution
    that called for an enhances WMD inspection regime to be
    implemented in Iraq, Resolution 1441. It stated very clearly that
    the UN inspection teams had to report any non-compliance to the
    Security Council so a suitable response could be formulated.

    Nothing was mentioned about regime change or liberation.

    The inspection teams began their work and immediately inspected all
    the most likely weapons sites provided by US intelligence. Surprisingly,
    they found nothing to report on.

    In his report to the UN Security Council, Hans Blix said the
    following:

    "In the past two months during which we have built-up our presence in
    Iraq, we have conducted about 300 inspections to more than 230
    different sites. Of these, more than 20 were sites that had not been
    inspected before. By the end of December, UNMOVIC began using
    helicopters both for the transport of inspectors and for actual
    inspection work. We now have eight helicopters. They have already
    proved invaluable in helping to ?freeze? large sites by observing the
    movement of traffic in and around the area."

    "We have now an inspection apparatus that permits us to send multiple
    inspection teams every day all over Iraq, by road or by air. Let me
    end by simply noting that that capability which has been built-up in
    a short time and which is now operating, is at the disposal of the
    Security Council."


    The Bush team got quite upset by the lack of inspection results and
    a few Republicans bashed Hans Blix for his "failure" to uncover
    weapons. A few weeks later, Colin Powell gave a speech to the
    Security Council which contained pictures of Iraqi WMD equipment
    (including chemical sites and biological trucks) amongst other
    things.

    The next day it was revealed that Powell had taken some of his
    information from a forged university thesis. The next week Hans Blix
    revealed that not only were the satellite photos of weapons sites
    taken a few weeks apart, but also that after inspection, none of
    those sites contained any evidence of WMDS. The nuclear inspection
    agency promply reported that the report on Iraqi nukes was "forged",
    a conclusion that Ambassador Wilson had already reported to Cheney's
    office over a year ealier.

    The US then attempted to push through a resolution to "disarm"
    Iraq but found very scant support within the Security Council and in
    the UN generally. Many countries outside the Security Council used a
    special session in the UN to protest the US action.

    World Opinion

    "One power with a president who has no foresight -- who cannot think
    properly -- is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust."

    Nelson Mandela

    Archbishop Renato Martino, a former U.N. envoy and current prefect of
    the Council for Justice and Peace, said the war against Iraq was not a
    "preventative" war and constituted a "war of aggression", and thus did not
    constitute a "just war." The foreign minister, Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran,
    expressed concerns that a war in Iraq would inflame anti-Christian feelings
    in the Islamic world.

    On February 8, 2003, Pope John Paul II said "we should never resign
    ourselves, almost as if war is inevitable."

    "The spectacle of the United States, armed with its weapons of mass
    destruction, acting without Security Council authority to invade a
    country in the heartland of Arabia and, if necessary, use its weapons
    of mass destruction to win that battle, is something that will so
    deeply violate any notion of fairness in this world that I strongly
    suspect it could set loose forces that we would deeply live to
    regret."

    Richard Butler who led the UN inspection teams in Iraq until 1998

    Hosni Mubarak predicted "100 more Bin Laden's" would be caused by the war.

    The World Council of Churches, which represents between 350 million
    and 450 million Christians from over 100 countries, published a
    statement in opposition to war with Iraq. The executive committee
    said, "War against Iraq would be immoral, unwise, and in breach of
    the principles of the United Nations Charter."


    The war in Iraq was protested by more people internationally than any
    other war in history since Vietnam.

    A weekend of worldwide anti-war demonstrations has brought millions
    of people out onto the streets in support of a peaceful solution to
    the crisis between Iraq and the United States.

    Between six and 10 million people are thought to have marched in up
    to 60 countries over the weekend - the largest demonstrations of
    their kind since the Vietnam War.

    Some of the largest turnouts were seen in countries whose governments
    have offered the staunchest support for US President George W Bush's
    tough stance against Iraq, threatening military action to force it to
    comply with UN disarmament rules.

    Since then the global opinion of the US has declined dramatically, as
    reported by numerous independant surveys and polls. Countries are
    less keen on sharing information with the US and some aren't even
    considered "allies" for their reluctance to join the war.

    The US then attacked Iraq and Iraqi opinion about the action was very
    high. A lot of them thanked the US for their liberation but after the
    US failed to commit enough ground troops and couldn't prevent the
    looting and anarchy that followed, sure enough a lot of them turned
    against the US and many of them even accept the latest terrorist attacks
    as completely justified.

    No large quantities of WMDs were found by the US, contrary to it's
    claims and so was no evidence of established ties to Al Queda, as
    documented by the 9/11 committee.

    Liberation which was supposed to liberate people actually turned a
    country into chaos and killed over 10,000 civilians. This was all
    paraded on international television stations. Reconstruction has been
    minimal due to the already stated anarchy.

    As I've mentioned, global opinion was always overwhelmingly against
    this war. Only now has the US public been more aware of it's reality.
    Finally.

    The war on terrorist requires allies. It needs credibility and all
    the help and intelligence it can get. It needs less Muslims to become
    terrorists and to hate the United States.

    Instead of the US focussing on these problems, it created completely
    new problems by declaring that it was invade Iraq, unilaterally if
    necessary.

    The war on Iraq completely undermined the war on terrorism. The US
    removed CIA trackers from Afganhistan to join the hunt for Saddam
    Hussein.

    Less people respect the US and many more Muslims are happy to blow
    themselves up for their cause.

    In Iraq, the moderate Shite/Sunni population have become measurably
    more fundamentalist, a lot of them wanting to form an Islamic State.

    Even Rumsfeld admitted:

    "we don't have a good visibility into how many new recruits are coming in
    - the intake - and going to these radical madrassa schools and
    learning how to go out and kill people and being encouraged and
    equipped and trained to deploy to do these suicide missions. We don't
    know that and unless one knows that, you can't answer the question
    are you winning or losing."


    Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global
    war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading
    more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics
    are recruiting, training and deploying against us?

    Does the US need to fashion a broad, integrated plan to stop the next
    generation of terrorists? The US is putting relatively little effort
    into a long-range plan, but we are putting a great deal of effort
    into trying to stop terrorists. The cost-benefit ratio is against us!
    Our cost is billions against the terrorists' costs of millions.


    And the State Dept:

    SUBJECT: PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT

    WORLDWIDE CAUTION

    This Public Announcement is being updated to remind U.S. citizens of the continuing threat of terrorist actions and anti-American violence against U.S. citizens and interests overseas. This supersedes the Worldwide Caution dated March 23, 2004 and expires on October 23, 2004.

    The Department of State is deeply concerned about the heightened threat of terrorist attacks against U.S. citizens and interests abroad. The Department is also concerned about the potential for demonstrations and violent actions against U.S. citizens and interests overseas. U.S. citizens are reminded to maintain a high level of vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness.

    The Department of State remains concerned by indications that al-Qaida continues to prepare to strike U.S. interests abroad. Al-Qaida and its associated organizations have most recently struck in the Middle East and in Europe but other geographic locations could also be venues for attacks. Future al-Qaida attacks could possibly involve non-conventional weapons such as chemical or biological agents as well as conventional weapons of terror. We also cannot rule out that al-Qaida will attempt a catastrophic attack within the U.S.

    Terrorist actions may include, but are not limited to, suicide operations, hijackings, bombings or kidnappings. These may involve aviation and other transportation and maritime interests, and may also include conventional weapons, such as explosive devices. Terrorists do not distinguish between official and civilian targets. These may include facilities where U.S. citizens and other foreigners congregate or visit, including residential areas, clubs, restaurants, places of worship, schools, hotels and public areas. U.S. citizens are encouraged to maintain a high level of vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness.

    U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert. These facilities may temporarily close or suspend public services from time to time to assess their security posture. In those instances, U.S. embassies and consulates will make every effort to provide emergency services to U.S. citizens. Americans abroad are urged to monitor the local news and maintain contact with the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate.



    You decide whether Bush is really winning the war on terror.
  • cosmo
    Gold Gabber
    • Jun 2004
    • 583

    #2
    The war on terrorist requires allies
    While skimming through this I couldn't help but notice this assertion that immediately destabilizes the whole argument.

    We do have allies. I just do not understand how the opposing view keeps ignoring the obvious.



    This will sum it up.

    Comment

    • delirious
      Addiction started
      • Jun 2004
      • 288

      #3
      Originally posted by cosmo
      The war on terrorist requires allies
      While skimming through this I couldn't help but notice this assertion that immediately destabilizes the whole argument.

      We do have allies. I just do not understand how the opposing view keeps ignoring the obvious.



      This will sum it up.
      I never said the US didn't have allies.

      I said that the war in Iraq reduced it's allies significantly from when it was fighting Afghanistan.

      Comment

      • Civic_Zen
        Platinum Poster
        • Jun 2004
        • 1116

        #4
        Originally posted by delirious
        Originally posted by cosmo
        The war on terrorist requires allies
        While skimming through this I couldn't help but notice this assertion that immediately destabilizes the whole argument.

        We do have allies. I just do not understand how the opposing view keeps ignoring the obvious.



        This will sum it up.
        I never said the US didn't have allies.

        I said that the war in Iraq reduced it's allies significantly from when it was fighting Afghanistan.
        Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

        Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

        You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.
        "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus (55-117 A.D.)
        "That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
        - Thomas Jefferson

        Comment

        • evangelion
          Platinum Poster
          • Jun 2004
          • 1999

          #5
          Originally posted by Civic_Zen
          France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.
          Thank God for that. Could you imagine an entire continent run by historical pussies and...well, Germans period????

          I shudder to think. :WTF:

          Comment

          • delirious
            Addiction started
            • Jun 2004
            • 288

            #6
            Originally posted by Civic_Zen
            Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

            Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

            You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.
            Are you talking about the countries or of the opinion of the people in them?

            The English people were by in large against the war without UN authorisation. Italian people were over 90% against the war, so were the people in nearly every country in the world. Government's by in large don't create terrorists, rather they are caused by independent cells within countries.



            Here is a list of counties against the war. Notice how not all of them are from from Europe or are called "France" or "Germany"
            New Zealand, Russia, China, Belarus, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Pakistan, India, Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Greece, Austria, Liechtenstein, Serbia , The Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, the Vatican City, Canada

            The Entire Arab League, with the exception of Kuwait:

            * Egypt
            * Iraq
            * Jordan
            * Lebanon
            * Saudi Arabia
            * Syria
            * Yemen
            * Libya
            * Sudan
            * Morocco
            * Tunisia
            * Algeria
            * United Arab Emirates
            * Bahrai
            * Qatar
            * Oman
            * Mauritania 3
            * Somalia
            * Palestine
            * Djibouti
            * Comoros

            As well as the African Union, consisting of 53 member states including:

            * People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
            * Republic of Angola
            * Republic of Benin
            * Republic of Botswana
            * Burkina Faso
            * Republic of Burundi
            * Republic of Cameroon
            * Republic of Cape Verde
            * Central African Republic
            * Republic of Chad
            * Union of Comoros
            * Republic of the Congo
            * Republic of C?te d'Ivoire
            * Democratic Republic of Congo
            * Republic of Djibouti
            * Arab Republic of Egypt
            * State of Eritrea
            * Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
            * Republic of Equatorial Guinea
            * Gabonese Republic
            * The Republic of The Gambia
            * Republic of Ghana
            * Republic of Guinea
            * Republic of Guinea Bissau
            * Republic of Kenya
            * Lesotho
            * Republic of Liberia
            * Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
            * Republic of Madagascar
            * Republic of Malawi
            * Republic of Mali
            * Islamic Republic of Mauritania
            * Republic of Mauritius
            * Republic of Mozambique
            * Republic of Namibia
            * Republic of Niger
            * Federal Republic of Nigeria
            * Republic of Rwanda
            * Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
            * Democratic Republic of S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe
            * Republic of Senegal
            * Republic of Seychelles
            * Republic of Sierra Leone
            * Republic of Somalia
            * Republic of South Africa
            * Republic of Sudan
            * Swaziland
            * United Republic of Tanzania
            * Togolese Republic
            * Republic of Tunisia
            * Republic of Uganda
            * Republic of Zambia
            * Republic of Zimbabwe

            I wasn't just talking about Europe. I never said France and Germany spoke for the world. The world speaks for the world. The fact is worldwide opinion for this war has always been low. Even American support for it has tanked in recent months!

            Comment

            • evangelion
              Platinum Poster
              • Jun 2004
              • 1999

              #7
              Originally posted by delirious
              Originally posted by Civic_Zen
              Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

              Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

              You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.
              Are you talking about the countries or of the opinion of the people in them?

              The English people were by in large against the war without UN authorisation. Italian people were over 90% against the war, so were the people in nearly every country in the world. Government's by in large don't create terrorists, rather they are caused by independent cells within countries.



              Here is a list of counties against the war. Notice how not all of them are from from Europe or are called "France" or "Germany"
              New Zealand, Russia, China, Belarus, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Pakistan, India, Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Greece, Austria, Liechtenstein, Serbia , The Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, the Vatican City, Canada

              The Entire Arab League, with the exception of Kuwait:

              * Egypt
              * Iraq
              * Jordan
              * Lebanon
              * Saudi Arabia
              * Syria
              * Yemen
              * Libya
              * Sudan
              * Morocco
              * Tunisia
              * Algeria
              * United Arab Emirates
              * Bahrai
              * Qatar
              * Oman
              * Mauritania 3
              * Somalia
              * Palestine
              * Djibouti
              * Comoros

              As well as the African Union, consisting of 53 member states including:

              * People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
              * Republic of Angola
              * Republic of Benin
              * Republic of Botswana
              * Burkina Faso
              * Republic of Burundi
              * Republic of Cameroon
              * Republic of Cape Verde
              * Central African Republic
              * Republic of Chad
              * Union of Comoros
              * Republic of the Congo
              * Republic of C?te d'Ivoire
              * Democratic Republic of Congo
              * Republic of Djibouti
              * Arab Republic of Egypt
              * State of Eritrea
              * Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
              * Republic of Equatorial Guinea
              * Gabonese Republic
              * The Republic of The Gambia
              * Republic of Ghana
              * Republic of Guinea
              * Republic of Guinea Bissau
              * Republic of Kenya
              * Lesotho
              * Republic of Liberia
              * Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
              * Republic of Madagascar
              * Republic of Malawi
              * Republic of Mali
              * Islamic Republic of Mauritania
              * Republic of Mauritius
              * Republic of Mozambique
              * Republic of Namibia
              * Republic of Niger
              * Federal Republic of Nigeria
              * Republic of Rwanda
              * Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
              * Democratic Republic of S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe
              * Republic of Senegal
              * Republic of Seychelles
              * Republic of Sierra Leone
              * Republic of Somalia
              * Republic of South Africa
              * Republic of Sudan
              * Swaziland
              * United Republic of Tanzania
              * Togolese Republic
              * Republic of Tunisia
              * Republic of Uganda
              * Republic of Zambia
              * Republic of Zimbabwe

              I wasn't just talking about Europe. I never said France and Germany spoke for the world. The world speaks for the world. The fact is worldwide opinion for this war has always been low. Even American support for it has tanked in recent months!
              Wow...do you want to reconcider your answer when I asked you if you have alot of time on your hands???

              Comment

              • Civic_Zen
                Platinum Poster
                • Jun 2004
                • 1116

                #8
                Originally posted by delirious
                Originally posted by Civic_Zen
                Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

                Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

                You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.
                Are you talking about the countries or of the opinion of the people in them?
                Obviously I'm speaking for the countries. Or maybe that wasn't obvious to you. 90% of people in Italy? Where did you get that poll? Your favorite site BBC, or the Guardian, either way its wrong. Italy HAS TROOPS fighting in Iraq with us. The people fighting were given a choice to do so or not and chose to fight.

                The same with American troops. Sure, some polls would have you believe that most in the US disagree with the war in Iraq too, but it shouldn't matter to anyone as much as it matters to the people doing the actual fighting. Question. Do you know or know anyone who knows a single person fighting in Iraq?? If so, how do they feel about being there? I know, or know indirectly no less then 10 people who have faught, or are currently over there. Not a single one of them would have it any other way.
                "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus (55-117 A.D.)
                "That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
                - Thomas Jefferson

                Comment

                • delirious
                  Addiction started
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 288

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Civic_Zen
                  Obviously I'm speaking for the countries. Or maybe that wasn't obvious to you. 90% of people in Italy? Where did you get that poll? Your favorite site BBC, or the Guardian, either way its wrong. Italy HAS TROOPS fighting in Iraq with us. The people fighting were given a choice to do so or not and chose to fight.
                  Notice how I never rip you off or call you names. That's only the debating tactic of the deperate. BTW if you ever get a "questionable" URL from me, perhaps from one of the most respected English (your ally!) newspapers, please ask me for another source and I'll happily provide one.

                  Again, you're talking about something unrelated: I never said Italy wasn't fighting in the war. Believe it or not, people can't just leave the army when an unpopular war comes up. They are signed up for a certain amount of service!

                  Correction about my Italy fact: It turns out nearly 4/5 Italians were opposed the action without UN authorisation acording to Opinioni. Other polls said 75%. My sincerest apologies, I must've got muddled up.

                  Originally posted by Civic_Zen
                  The same with American troops. Sure, some polls would have you believe that most in the US disagree with the war in Iraq too, but it shouldn't matter to anyone as much as it matters to the people doing the actual fighting. Question. Do you know or know anyone who knows a single person fighting in Iraq?? If so, how do they feel about being there? I know, or know indirectly no less then 10 people who have faught, or are currently over there. Not a single one of them would have it any other way.
                  If my friends were in Iraq, I'd support them (Just as I support the soldiers doing their job in Iraq - I never critised them)

                  As it so happens, the US has a big problem with morale in Iraq at the moment. I don't bet that most of the soldiers actually want to be fighting this war at the moment. They'd rather be home with their families, helping to protect the homeland.

                  In Army Survey, Troops in Iraq Report Low Morale
                  ( Friday, March 26, 2004 )
                  The Washington Post

                  A slim majority of Army soldiers in Iraq -- 52 percent -- reported that their morale was low, and three-fourths of them said they felt poorly led by their officers, according to a survey taken at the end of the summer and released yesterday by the Army.

                  In addition, seven in 10 of those surveyed characterized the morale of their fellow soldiers as low or very low. The problems were most pronounced among lower-ranking troops and those in reserve units.

                  "Nearly 75% of the groups reported that their battalion-level command leadership was poor" and showed "a lack of concern" for their soldiers, said an Army report accompanying the data. "Unit cohesion was also reported to be low."

                  The survey was part of a study initiated by the Army last summer after a number of suicides provoked concern about the mental well-being of soldiers in Iraq. The report faulted the Army for how it handled mental health problems, saying some counselors felt inadequately trained and citing problems in distribution of antidepressant medication and sleeping pills.

                  But perhaps the most surprising findings were the grim conclusions about troop morale, which indicate that Iraq is taking a toll that goes beyond casualty figures.

                  The Pentagon has been intensely worried that more frequent and longer combat tours will prompt more soldiers to get out of the Army rather than reenlist, especially if it means a second stint in Iraq or Afghanistan. Army insiders say it is likely that brigades from three divisions that served in Iraq over the past year -- the 101st Airborne, the 3rd Infantry and the 4th Infantry -- are likely to be sent back in 2005.

                  The Pentagon data on morale also appear to give official confirmation to a more informal survey conducted last summer by Stars and Stripes, the military newspaper. That survey found about half of troops who filled out questionnaires described their unit's morale as low and their training as insufficient, and said they did not plan to reenlist.

                  Col. Virgil Patterson, who oversaw the Army survey, said he was "somewhat surprised" by the findings on troop morale. He noted that when the survey was taken, soldiers were still feeling the effects of a brutally hot Iraqi summer, and that since then troops have better living conditions and are better able to communicate with their families.

                  "It was a pretty miserable set of circumstances at the time," he said. "We speculate that all of those contributed to the factor of low morale."

                  Patterson said he could not place the numbers in historical context because similar surveys have not been conducted before. "This is the first time we've ever gone into an active combat theater and asked soldiers how they are doing, so we have no comparative data," he said. The study, conducted from late August through early October 2003, surveyed 756 Army soldiers in Iraq and Kuwait, focusing on units that had engaged in combat.

                  Reaction to the Army's survey was mixed among several experts.

                  Retired Army Col. Robert Killebrew, a Vietnam War veteran, said, "It's not particularly surprising, especially given the frustrating nature of the combat they're facing now, with patrols and bombs going off."

                  But a senior Army commander who spoke on the condition of anonymity expressed alarm.

                  "I'd be extremely worried by these numbers," said the officer, who specializes in morale issues. Having more than half the soldiers surveyed say they are unhappy should "set off alarm bells," the officer said.

                  Jonathan Shay, a Veterans Affairs psychiatrist, called it "a painful report to read." Shay, who wrote two books on cohesion and leadership problems in the U.S. military during the Vietnam War, said the report shows morale and cohesion were "seriously low" among troops in Iraq.

                  The report faulted the Army's handling of mental health issues for troops and called for appointment of a "czar" to coordinate such services in Iraq and Kuwait. Patterson said a medical specialist would fill that new position next month.

                  In its findings on suicide, the report confirmed data previously released by the Army that the rate among soldiers in Iraq in 2003 was higher than for the Army generally, but lower than that of U.S. men of a similar age range. There were 23 confirmed suicides among Army troops in Iraq in 2003, for a rate of 15.6 per 100,000 soldiers, the report said. That compares with an Army average in recent years of 11.9, they said.

                  Col. Bruce Crow, an Army psychologist and an expert in suicide prevention who served as a member of the study group, said there were few clear patterns to the suicides, such as a persistent correlation with how long the troops had been deployed or what type of work they were doing. But he said soldiers who killed themselves generally tended to be younger, unmarried men.

                  Comment

                  • delirious
                    Addiction started
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 288

                    #10
                    Originally posted by _evangelion_
                    Wow...do you want to reconcider your answer when I asked you if you have alot of time on your hands???
                    Answer the following and I'll willingly answer your question:
                    Why do you care if I have time on my hands or not? Why is it an issue? Is there some rule to only write short, ranty posts with no real data in them?

                    Comment

                    • mylexicon
                      Addiction started
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 339

                      #11
                      I don't understand why everytime liberals read bad news they think:
                      :cry: We should just give up and leave.

                      Are problems unable to be solved these days?......i don't get it. Morale is low
                      and people disagree with us.....so let's leave Iraq and run from our problems

                      That oughta solve everything
                      Be a vegan......eat freedom fries..

                      Comment

                      • delirious
                        Addiction started
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 288

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mylexicon
                        I don't understand why everytime liberals read bad news they think:
                        :cry: We should just give up and leave.

                        Are problems unable to be solved these days?......i don't get it. Morale is low
                        and people disagree with us.....so let's leave Iraq and run from our problems

                        That oughta solve everything
                        Well I disagree with those Liberals. The US shouldn't leave Iraq but deploy more ground troops to improve the security situation. When a US commander recommended that before the war, he was dismissed. Then when the State Department warned of the risks of the invasion and created a plan to cope with them, it was also dismissed by the Pentagon.

                        My argument is that this was the wrong war to fight at the wrong time. The worldwide opinion at the time said the same thing. Most of the US's allies' populations were against the war. Nearly all of the Arab countries (and their populations) were also against the war. Turkey (a longtime US ally) didn't even let the US use it's Southern border with Iraq for the Northern Invasion.

                        Don't leave now but try to recognise the grave errors that were made in this war.

                        Even now, over 50% of Americans regard it as a mistake. Most of them, however, don't think the US should just run. That's my opinion, too.

                        Comment

                        • FM
                          Wooooooo!
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 5361

                          #13
                          no, everyone just wants them solved nice and quickly..and when they can't be...
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                          • cosmo
                            Gold Gabber
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 583

                            #14
                            How many of those countries were hit on 9/11? Do you think they care about the war on terror?

                            If anything the majority of those people hate us(for other reasons) to begin with and want to appease the enemy so they will not get attacked.

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                            • delirious
                              Addiction started
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 288

                              #15
                              Originally posted by cosmo
                              How many of those countries were hit on 9/11? Do you think they care about the war on terror?
                              Quite a lot of them, according to the State Dept. These countries suffered losses on 9/11:

                              Antigua & Barbuda
                              Argentina
                              Australia
                              Austria
                              Bangladesh
                              Barbados
                              Belarus
                              Belgium
                              Belize
                              Bolivia
                              Brazil
                              Canada
                              Chile
                              China
                              Colombia
                              Czech Republic
                              Dominica
                              Dominican Republic
                              Ecuador
                              Egypt
                              El Salvador
                              Ethiopia
                              France
                              The Gambia
                              Germany
                              Ghana
                              Greece
                              Grenada
                              Guatemala
                              Guyana
                              Haiti
                              Honduras
                              Hong Kong
                              India
                              Indonesia
                              Ireland
                              Israel
                              Italy
                              Jamaica
                              Japan
                              Jordan
                              Kazakhstan
                              Kenya
                              Lebanon
                              Liberia
                              Lithuania
                              Malaysia
                              Mexico
                              The Netherlands
                              New Zealand
                              Nicaragua
                              Nigeria
                              Pakistan
                              Panama
                              Paraguay
                              Peru
                              Philippines
                              Poland
                              Portugal
                              Romania
                              Russia
                              South Africa
                              South Korea
                              Spain
                              Sri Lanka
                              St. Kitts & Nevis
                              St. Lucia
                              St. Vincent & the
                              Grenadines
                              Sweden
                              Switzerland
                              Taiwan
                              Thailand
                              Togo
                              Trinidad & Tobago
                              Turkey
                              Ukraine
                              United Kingdom
                              United States of America
                              Uruguay
                              Uzbekistan
                              Venezuela
                              Yemen
                              Yugoslavia
                              Zimbabwe



                              Originally posted by cosmo
                              If anything the majority of those people hate us(for other reasons) to begin with and want to appease the enemy so they will not get attacked.
                              The majority of the world hated America before the war? Do you have any data to back up that statement?

                              Why, then, when Clinton visited Africa and Britain, and the rest of the world, was he greeted on the street with much less of a security arrangement than Bush? Was he hated in the same way? Did people burn efigies of him in the street? Didn't he try to help the Middle East peace process and all that?

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