Is Bush winning the war on terror?

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  • delirious
    Addiction started
    • Jun 2004
    • 288

    #31
    Originally posted by maxman
    Holland / The Netherlands have always supported America as well...
    That's why nearly all of the pro-war parties of Europian states (including Britain, Spain and the Netherlands) lost significant votes in their last elections.

    I agree that lots of countries supported the war but having most of the world opinion against such a war is not a victory in the war against terrorism. Especially since the war has been handled so badly.

    Europe's leaders may be divided on the Iraq crisis, but the majority of people across the continent are united in their opposition to war, polls suggest.
    From Portugal to Russia, opinion surveys suggest that without a further UN resolution, most Europeans are overwhelmingly against war - and even a second resolution would not convince many of them.
    BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service


    If most of Europe and Africa's populations are against this war, imagine it's impact on Muslim populations and the impact on their opinions of the US. Making most of the world despise the US is NOT the way to win a war on terrorism. You need as many allies as possible. You need friends to share information and resources, not distrust you.

    WASHINGTON, D.C., June 6 (OneWorld) - A new, 20-country poll showing a sharp decline in positive attitudes towards the United States in the wake of Iraq War since just last summer has much of the Washington foreign policy community reeling.

    The poll, the latest in a series carried out by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, found a substantial drop in the percentage of Europeans who said they felt either somewhat or very favorable towards the United States and a much steeper plunge in favorable attitudes throughout the Islamic world, and especially in Arab countries.

    "The war has widened the rifts between Americans and Western Europeans, further inflamed the Muslim world, softened support for the war on terrorism, and significantly weakened global public support for the pillars of the post-World War II era--the UN and the North Atlantic Alliance," according to a narrative summary released with the report here Tuesday.

    With the exception of Morocco, majorities in all of the predominantly Muslim countries, including even Kuwait, said they now feared that the United States might carry out a military attack against their nations, while majorities in every country surveyed, including Israel, said they thought the administration of President George W. Bush has sided with Israel against the Palestinians instead of being even-handed.

    Even more worrisome, solid majorities in the Palestinian Authority, Indonesia and Jordan--and nearly half of those in Morocco and Pakistan--said they have at least some confidence in Osama bin Laden to "do the right thing regarding world affairs." Conversely, support for the U.S. "war on terror" has declined sharply throughout the Muslim world.

    "It's going to be a real challenge to turn Muslim opinion around," said Andrew Kohut, the Project director, about the findings in the eight Muslim countries covered in the survey which was released as Bush himself took part in a meeting with Arab leaders in Egypt.

    The findings alarmed many foreign-policy analysts and former policy-makers. "Something I never, ever thought I would see," said former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, "is the fear of American power," as illustrated by the results. Albright, who chaired an international board that advised the Project's implementation, also expressed concern about public attitudes in Washington's NATO allies. "For those of us who care about NATO, this is a red flag. The only way to get beyond this is to find more ways we can work together in NATO."

    The report found that strong majorities, ranging from 57 percent in Germany to 76 percent in France, in five of seven NATO countries surveyed said they support a more independent relationship with Washington on diplomatic and security matters than has prevailed in the past.

    "There is a growing resentment out there, and it cannot be in our interest to have much of the world hoping...that we're going to stumble," said Clyde Prestowitz, president of the Economic Strategy Institute and author of a new book on U.S. foreign policy entitled 'Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism and the Failure of Good Intentions.' "A superpower has to be super-sensitive."

    The poll, which was based on responses by some 16,000 respondents over the last month in five western European nations, Russia, eight predominantly Muslim countries, including the Palestinian Authority (PA), Israel, Brazil, Nigeria, Australia, South Korea, and Canada, found that approval of the United States has fallen in virtually every country, including in those, like Britain, that supported the U.S. in the war.

    Favorability ratings were highest in Israel (79 percent) and Britain (70 percent) and lowest in Turkey (15 percent), Pakistan (13 percent), and Jordan and the PA, where only one percent of respondents said they had either very or somewhat favorable opinions of the U.S.

    Declines were sharpest in the Islamic world. In Indonesia, for example, only 15 percent expressed favorable opinions of the U.S., a precipitous plunge from 61 percent just last summer.

    The declines, according to Kohut, did not begin in mid-2002. Pew has been monitoring global attitudes towards the US since just before Bush took office; between then and 2002 U.S. favorability ratings abroad have fallen in virtually every country covered by the survey. In Turkey, for example, the U.S. was considered favorably by a majority of 52 percent of respondents in 2000. The percentage dropped to 30 percent by mid-2000 and then plunged to 15 percent after the Iraq war.

    The new poll found generally high levels of support for U.S. political and cultural values compared to the policies and popularity of Bush himself. In Europe, in particular, respondents related their negative feelings towards the U.S. more to Bush than to "America in general."

    But to some analysts, like Minxin Pei of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, those findings were no cause for comfort. "Anti-Americanism is in large part generated by people who admire American values," he said. "It is the inconsistency (between values and performance) that is driving anti-Americanism abroad."

    "The question of whether this kind of hypocrisy (that is perceived in U.S. conduct) isn't absolutely necessary given (Washington's) current role in the global system," according to Francis Fukuyama of the Johns Hopkins School for Advanced International Studies (SAIS). "It certainly is irritating to people."

    Some analysts declared themselves heartened by the results. "I think there's new-found respect for American power," said Max Boot, a neo-conservative commentator at the Council on Foreign Relations. "I'd rather be respected than look weak and helpless as we did on September 12 (2001)" when many governments rallied to the side of the United States after the 9/11 attacks on New York and the Pentagon.

    "World leadership is not about popularity," Danielle Pletka, another neo-conservative at the American Enterprise Institute, told Newhouse News. "The right thing is not always the popular thing."

    Still others stressed that Washington needed to do more to communicate its good intentions. "There are a lot of people who are ill-informed," said Virginia Republican Sen. George Allen. "We have to continue our policies that will bring the advancement of freedom. We have to keep working on our message."

    But others insist that the problem will not be solved through public diplomacy but rather by reconsidering basic policies. "The United States needs to adopt a new policy that would use military force only as a last resort in the defense of truly vital national interests," said Ivan Eland of the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington.
    http://pages.zdnet.com/trimb/id114.html

    Is this a victory in the war against terrorism?
    I say not.

    Comment

    • maxman
      Addiction started
      • Jun 2004
      • 290

      #32
      Delirious wrote:

      maxman wrote:
      Holland / The Netherlands have always supported America as well...


      That's why nearly all of the pro-war parties of Europian states (including Britain, Spain and the Netherlands) lost significant votes in their last elections.
      I don't know which elections you're talking about but we had them some time ago (on the virge of the war actually) and the most pro-american political party (CDA) won and the most 'anti-war in Iraq' party (PvdA) lost and is not even in the government anymore after I believe 12 years of reigning...

      One could argue it was at the start of the war and people were more pro than now. If we would have elections now, it'll probably turn out different. But that's not only due to the war and the Dutch support of it.

      Your statement is incorrect anyway. :wink:
      My life is full of dark times and times when the sun breaks through and makes everything okay again.
      People don't know how uplifting music is, until they have been through the dark.

      Markus Schulz

      Comment

      • delirious
        Addiction started
        • Jun 2004
        • 288

        #33
        Originally posted by maxman
        Delirious wrote:

        maxman wrote:
        Holland / The Netherlands have always supported America as well...


        That's why nearly all of the pro-war parties of Europian states (including Britain, Spain and the Netherlands) lost significant votes in their last elections.
        I don't know which elections you're talking about but we had them some time ago (on the virge of the war actually) and the most pro-american political party (CDA) won and the most 'anti-war in Iraq' party (PvdA) lost and is not even in the government anymore after I believe 12 years of reigning...

        One could argue it was at the start of the war and people were more pro than now. If we would have elections now, it'll probably turn out different. But that's not only due to the war and the Dutch support of it.

        Your statement is incorrect anyway. :wink:
        Sorry if I was wrong. I got that data from the following articles:

        In the Netherlands, which also has troops in Iraq, Dutch opposition parties critical of the conflict made significant gains, with losses registered for parties in the conservative coalition government. However, Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende managed to stabilize the vote for his Christian Democrats, with his coalition partners suffering the heaviest losses.
        Analysis indicates Iraq policy has cost British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his Italian counterpart Silvio Berlusconi heavily at the ballot box.


        European voters punished leaders in Britain, Italy and the Netherlands for getting involved in Iraq - but also turned their ire on the war's chief opponents German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and French President Jacques Chirac over local issues, projections showed Sunday.
        Iraq also was an issue in The Netherlands, where the deployment of 1,400 troops was a key issue in Thursday's vote. Preliminary results showed gains for leftist opposition parties.


        Comment

        • maxman
          Addiction started
          • Jun 2004
          • 290

          #34
          To delirious: no probs, just want a discussion based on facts (as far as I can oversee them), just like you.

          I think these quotes are from the European elections, where the reigning governments got their asses kicked for several reasons (one of them being spending too much....).

          From my point of view this is not representative for any local sentiment, as only around 30% of the voters go to the european elections (it's still too abstract for a lot of people).

          The strange thing is that the same punishment was for German and French parties, that were against the war - but again, in my eyes it's not representative.
          My life is full of dark times and times when the sun breaks through and makes everything okay again.
          People don't know how uplifting music is, until they have been through the dark.

          Markus Schulz

          Comment

          • delirious
            Addiction started
            • Jun 2004
            • 288

            #35
            Originally posted by maxman
            I think these quotes are from the European elections, where the reigning governments got their asses kicked for several reasons (one of them being spending too much....).

            From my point of view this is not representative for any local sentiment, as only around 30% of the voters go to the european elections (it's still too abstract for a lot of people).

            The strange thing is that the same punishment was for German and French parties, that were against the war - but again, in my eyes it's not representative.
            Well, since you're based in Europe (according to your profile), I have to accept you undoubtably have a much better understanding of Europian politics than me! Thanks for the heads-up

            But nevertheless, according to nearly every single poll carried out worldwide, global opinion has always been against this war. Only recently has US opinion also shifted that way.

            In my opinion, acting with such disregard for world opinion is an own-goal in the war against terror. To win such a war, you need the world with you, not against you and distrusting your intentions.

            Comment

            • davetlv
              Platinum Poster
              • Jun 2004
              • 1205

              #36
              Originally posted by delirious
              Well, since you're based in Europe (according to your profile), I have to accept you undoubtably have a much better understanding of Europian politics than me! Thanks for the heads-up

              But nevertheless, according to nearly every single poll carried out worldwide, global opinion has always been against this war. Only recently has US opinion also shifted that way.

              In my opinion, acting with such disregard for world opinion is an own-goal in the war against terror. To win such a war, you need the world with you, not against you and distrusting your intentions.
              The thing about world opinion is this, it says one thing to the pollsters and another thing at polling day. Certainly many European governments got their asses kicked a few weeks ago, but logically, the vast majority of this was not because of the war but because of the intrinisc position of European Unionism itself.

              I'm not saying that the War in Iraq didn't effect the elections results, i'm just not convinced how relevant they were.

              One thing living 34 years in the UK taught me, certainly from the British experience anyway, that mid term elections, be they local government or EU, usually pull out a protest about something or other, but when when it comes to National Governmental elections this protest voice is much quieter. As there is no democratically elected second house in the UK, the electorate like to keep the government of power on their toes with what they foolishly believe to be some type of check and balance mechanism. For clear proof of this you just have to look at the bashing the British conservatives got at a local level when they governed the country under Thatcher and Major. The fact that Blair's Labour party is getting a kicking now, towards the end of their second term, is by no means surprising.

              Comment

              • maxman
                Addiction started
                • Jun 2004
                • 290

                #37
                to deleriously: you're right, I'm from Holland, but for my work I travel all over europe. Currently I'm in Prague, but tomorrow in Warsaw - it's hard for me to decide where I really LIVE. I'm about 1 day a week (average) in Holland, but do follow the stuff happening there. Your remarks about global opinion does make sense and for me it's sometimes hard to understand why certain action is taken. But maybe that'll always be the problem with politics.... :wink:

                To davetlev: your remark is valid. Mid-term or whatever elections apart from the national one doesn't say a lot. In Holland we have the phenomenon of the so called 'floating voter'. It's about 30-40% of the voters that decide what to vote almost the second before they press the button on the voting machine....

                This makes polls normally highly unreliable....
                My life is full of dark times and times when the sun breaks through and makes everything okay again.
                People don't know how uplifting music is, until they have been through the dark.

                Markus Schulz

                Comment

                • evangelion
                  Platinum Poster
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 1999

                  #38
                  Originally posted by delirious
                  Originally posted by _evangelion_
                  Originally posted by delirious
                  ...that's why I stick to making a few, short posts per day.
                  Originally posted by delirious
                  Is there some rule to only write short, ranty posts with no real data in them?
                  Nah, just seems to me you've got a bad case of Kerryism. Say one thing, do another. Now keep contradicting yourself like a good liberal.
                  I had some free time last night and decided to write a few longer posts.

                  Now, again, why is this a big deal to you? Why do you care if I write longer posts?

                  I don't. Just trying to see how long I can keep this going. Thanks for the laugh!!!

                  Comment

                  • brakada
                    Gold Gabber
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 622

                    #39
                    Originally posted by maxman
                    to deleriously: you're right, I'm from Holland, but for my work I travel all over europe. Currently I'm in Prague, but tomorrow in Warsaw - it's hard for me to decide where I really LIVE. I'm about 1 day a week (average) in Holland, but do follow the stuff happening there. Your remarks about global opinion does make sense and for me it's sometimes hard to understand why certain action is taken. But maybe that'll always be the problem with politics.... :wink:
                    nice job you got there... :wink: What do you do? Were you ever in Slovenia?

                    Originally posted by maxman
                    To davetlev: your remark is valid. Mid-term or whatever elections apart from the national one doesn't say a lot. In Holland we have the phenomenon of the so called 'floating voter'. It's about 30-40% of the voters that decide what to vote almost the second before they press the button on the voting machine....
                    This makes polls normally highly unreliable....
                    Although it is almost impossible to discuss the election results (with Spain as an exception ), I'd like to ask you what is the public opinion in your country regarding the Iraq war?

                    To my knowledge here in Slovenia and the neighbouring countries Croatia, Austria and Italy, the public support is very low and judging on the news about other countries and anti-war protests and demonstrations, the support in other countries isn't that big either...
                    We shall boldly dance, where no man has danced before..."

                    Comment

                    • delirious
                      Addiction started
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 288

                      #40
                      Originally posted by _evangelion_
                      I don't. Just trying to see how long I can keep this going. Thanks for the laugh!!!
                      I love intelligent debate

                      Comment

                      • evangelion
                        Platinum Poster
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 1999

                        #41
                        Originally posted by delirious
                        Originally posted by _evangelion_
                        I don't. Just trying to see how long I can keep this going. Thanks for the laugh!!!
                        I love intelligent debate
                        Gotta keep it light some how.

                        Just because I don't hide behind a bunch of charts, links and other peoples words means there is no intelligence behind my statements? I like to call it "fact based opinion." Anyone can use someone elses statements. I choose not to.

                        Comment

                        • maxman
                          Addiction started
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 290

                          #42
                          To brakada: yes I've been in a lot of countries, including Slovenia. but I also lived in America (one year), Spain (one year), Czech Republic (9 months), Germany (6 months) and so on. I'm off to live in Poland for the next months (I'm the guy who always started posts about 'where is a good party in.....'). Actually I've met some MS-members on my travels, which was really nice! I'm hired by companies to fix their problems (sounds dodgy) mainly in the area of efficiency improvement, processes and quality.

                          Slightly (?) off topic, but maybe this qualifies me for the next question... :wink:

                          Public opinion in Holland is one of the most positive ones in Europe (according to the polls that is), but still is not very positive. Big protests and demonstrations I haven't seen, and my house lives (joke! as I'm rarely there) in Den Haag / The Hague (political centre of Holland).
                          My life is full of dark times and times when the sun breaks through and makes everything okay again.
                          People don't know how uplifting music is, until they have been through the dark.

                          Markus Schulz

                          Comment

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