Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[robprunzit]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Ok let me ask you a question. Since these GITMO guys were all picked up in battle situations, we can pretty well assume they were only there for one reason. To fight and kill. Many of the same clan are strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up Iraqi policeman, civilians, and children.

With that being stated, my question is two fold.
1. how would you treat these guys? how would get them to talk?
2. how do you try these people in American courts? where do you get the jury from, witnesses, lawyers, not to mention the cultural differences which would confuse matters more, and I don't mean language, I mean mental cultural differences based on their upbringing.

[robprunzit]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

We don't cornhole our captives like the Mujahadeen (sp?) did in Afghanistan, we don't beat prisoners with sticks until they bleed, we don't hang people upside down and dunk their heads in water until they cannot breath.

Uh, evidently we do, and lots of Americans are fine with it.

That's troubling...

Excuse me, what is troubling, is the clear fact that you have forgotten 3000+ people did on 9/11 from people of the same mind and belief structure. America was attacked, and people groups from all over the world died that day in the most horrible way. Instant death, smoke, fire, being crushed, some fast, some slow, some jumping out of windows, some fallen with the buildings.

I don't say this to make abuse or torture OK, but how can you forget why this is happening anyway. Maybe if you or someone like your family members were involved you would think a little deeper about it. Sounds like to me you guys want to defend these bad guys, who would slit your throat if they could use you for propaganda like they have so many, example Nick Berg.

Go view the beheading videos I posted, and think about it.

[pacific493]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

In the middle east, common people don't understand what politics are like in America. How the left thrashes out at the right. How liberals slander and lie, and then back off, after the damage is done. Al Jazira (sp) will only print what helps the efforts of the terrrorist. Durbin has become an aide to the terrorist, just as Jane Fonda was in the Vietnam War.

Just curious, what's your connection to the middle east? I hear so much pontificating about how things are taken in the middle east and I'm always curious to know how much people actually know about what they're talking about..

1. I have studied and read up on Islam. I have questioned the leading Muslim cleric and Imam in Atlanta about Islam.
2. I dated an Iranian girl for a while, and hung with many of them.
3. Next to my office is a good friend, a Libyan muslim man much older than me. He and I talk about this stuff, and he explains much of the Arab and muslim culture to me.
4. Talk radio, about 6 different shows a day. I listen off and on as I have time, not continually. Many things are discussed, and much of it is politics, where many viewpoints are brought up and debated.

Another point. If he really apologized, why doesn't he step down, like Senator Trent Lott (republican Dec. 2002) did after his misguided racist comments at the birthday party. Maybe because he doesn't have the president's advisor pushing to have him ousted.

Because he's not as stupid as Trent Lott. He should have never stepped down...it was a dumb move that left us with Bill Frist..

Not dumb. I happen to respect him for taking responsibility for his mistake, though I miss him, and also his mistake was tiny in comparison to what Durbin has done.

His comments were so far exaggerated that the words cannot even be taken back from where they have gone. More insurgents will join up and suit up with explosives because of his comments. And all he can do is say 'I'm sorry if my words have hurt some of you'

Dude, you need to listen to a little less Savage Nation.

Actually, I only listen a little to M. Savage, and he really doesnt like Bush btw. There are many others who do a better job than he. And I make my mind up about what I believe, it only helps to hear more of the entire story with the help of talk radio. You cannot get a full view any other way, whether you agree with them or not. Fox is helpful, and much more balanced than locals or CNN.[/quote]

Not quite, cant see how you would read anything like that into what I have mentioned. War couldn't ever be 'honky-dorry', its messy, thats really what it is.

Well, you seem to be pinning all of the alleged increased danger facing american troops on Durbin. Perhaps I engaged in a bit of hyperbole, but you seem to discount any effect the underlying abuse and mistreatment of prisoners has. Do you think that GITMO placed american troops at no increased danger until Durbin made his comments? And considering that it was conservative types like Hannity and Savage who spread Durbin's comments far and wide and gave paid them far more attention than they deserved, don't they bear some blame as well?

Not close to the damage Durbin has caused. Our troops are working close to nationals, training them, and working with them in the most difficult situations. Cultures are very different, and much can be a division point in what they are doing side by side with Iraqis, both military and civilian. Trust is a key in what they are doing.

Incredible...so all of this falls on Durbin and no one else?

1. I have studied and read up on Islam. I have questioned the leading Muslim cleric and Imam in Atlanta about Islam.
2. I dated an Iranian girl for a while, and hung with many of them.
3. Next to my office is a good friend, a Libyan muslim man much older than me. He and I talk about this stuff, and he explains much of the Arab and muslim culture to me.
4. Talk radio, about 6 different shows a day. I listen off and on as I have time, not continually. Many things are discussed, and much of it is politics, where many viewpoints are brought up and debated.

Ahh, so you have no real experience with the middle east...thought so. Sorry, but dating an Iranian and chatting with people who have been to (or are from) the middle east hardly qualifies you to pontificate about the effect that Durbin's comments are having on the street in the middle east, much less the effect they are having on insurgents and the manner in which they will now treat american troops as a result.

It's amazing how you think that that list of experiences qualifies you to say that Durbin is the problem...simply amazing.

The talk radio part doesn't surprise me, though. A little piece of advice, listening to Rush or Hannity or Savage or Boortz or any of the other talk radio people doesn't make you an expert in anything, but partisan political rhetoric. .

[pacific493]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

We don't cornhole our captives like the Mujahadeen (sp?) did in Afghanistan, we don't beat prisoners with sticks until they bleed, we don't hang people upside down and dunk their heads in water until they cannot breath.

Uh, evidently we do, and lots of Americans are fine with it.

That's troubling...

There are those among us that do, but that is not what true Americans would do because those are the tactics of our enemies and the enemies of freedom.

[toasty]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Maybe if you or someone like your family members were involved you would think a little deeper about it.

As a matter of fact, I, like many Americans, did lose some friends and colleagues in that tragedy. You didn't have a monopoly on grief or outrage on 9/11, and you don't now.

That, however, is a different issue. You preface your remarks by saying, "I don't say this to make abuse or torture OK," and then you go on to suggest just that. Our children's history books will, for the first time, contain a section about how Americans were the architects of torture. Doesn't that bother you?

Sounds like to me you guys want to defend these bad guys

Sounds to me like you've been listening to too much Karl Rove. I have fucking had it with neocons equating a desire to not torture people with a desire to coddle and "understand" terrorists. Remember what happened when we decided to go into Afghanistan? Apart from one lone jackassed dissenter, every single Senator and Rep, republican and democrat alike, voted to authorize Bush to use whatever force was necessary to vindicate what happened on 9/11. If you seriously think there was an ideological difference at that point, I'd challenge you to point to some evidence of it.

Since these GITMO guys were all picked up in battle situations

All? How about the folks that were rounded up here in the states and shipped down there? I seriously draw a distinction, as the Supreme Court did, between American citizens and folks rounded up in Afghanistan. Americans need to be charged and tried, and dealt with accordingly, whatever that entails -- if that means they're executed, I'm fine with that. Actual combatants can sit and rot as POWs as far as I'm concerned. We can interrogate them to our hearts content, and can use some pretty aggressive tactics to do so. They can't be tortured, though, because when we -- who have long held the position of being above such things -- bring the bar down to that level, everyone will drop to the lowest common denominator and our troops will absolutely be tortured when captured, at a minimum.

[pacific493]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Excuse me, what is troubling, is the clear fact that you have forgotten 3000+ people did on 9/11 from people of the same mind and belief structure. America was attacked, and people groups from all over the world died that day in the most horrible way. Instant death, smoke, fire, being crushed, some fast, some slow, some jumping out of windows, some fallen with the buildings.

While it seems to have become an acceptable tactic to conservatives that all arguments can be won with a vivid reference to 9/11, your response was...well...completely non-responsive.

I don't say this to make abuse or torture OK, but how can you forget why this is happening anyway. Maybe if you or someone like your family members were involved you would think a little deeper about it. Sounds like to me you guys want to defend these bad guys, who would slit your throat if they could use you for propaganda like they have so many, example Nick Berg.

You may not intend for your position to make abuse or torture OK, but that is what you are doing. You are saying that it is ok, you are condoning its use and that is not what this country stands for. I hate to break it to you, but I and my family members are involved...we are all members of this country and we are all at risk from terrorist attacks. That being said, if this country lowers itself to the tactics used by our enemies, then we have already lost.

Ahhh, so now we are defending the bad guys...go ahead and take the next step...we're providing comfort and aid to the enemies and we are traitors...right? Isn't that where this is going? So now if we condemn torture and abuse (which you're not trying to make OK), we are defending the bad guys? Give me a break. The only thing I am defending are the ideals of this country...you're defending an "ends justifies the means" approach, which is the ideal underlying the worst abuses that we have seen.

Go view the beheading videos I posted, and think about it.

I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk?
[/quote]

[thesightless]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk?

to save the many lives that terrorist would be glad to take if given the proper oppurtunity, then yes. like i said, i never want to be running down 5th avenue fearing for my life, and those of my family ever again. sad but completely true

[pacific493]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk?

to save the many lives that terrorist would be glad to take if given the proper oppurtunity, then yes. like i said, i never want to be running down 5th avenue fearing for my life, and those of my family ever again. sad but completely true

It's obviously the most difficult moral dilemma we could face (the one you point out). I go back and forth on that, but I fall more on the side of not wanting to stoop to their level. If we lose our ideals and give in to our baser emotions, then we are no better than they. Our ideals are worth dying and sacrificing for...if I had to sacrifice myself or my family and friends in order to protect the dignity and integrity of who I am as an American and who we are as a nation, as painful as it would be, I would do it. I am not a terrorist and will never act as a terrorist would act.

[thesightless]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

so you would sacrifice/risk lives to put morals over them?

[toasty]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

so you would sacrifice/risk lives to put morals over them?

Boy, that's a loaded question. That assumes that torturing people actually does any good. Studies have shown it to be an ineffective tool in actually getting accurate information because people will say anything just to get the torture to stop. The info is worthless, and then you go back to them and do what? Torture them some more with more ferocity until they send you on another boondoggle?

If you could assure me that:
1. The people being tortured had relevant information, AND
2. They would "break" and provide that information, AND
3. The information they would provide would be accurate and timely, AND
4. Americans would be saved by torturing them.

...then maybe we've got a dilemma. As it stands, though, torture is just torture for torture's sake.

Look, I want to get these fuckers, too, but this ain't the way to go about it.

[thesightless]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

not me, i'd introduce him to the pistol whip over and over again as long as i knew he was involved. this doesnt mean i would pick up a guy off the streets, but for instance, when they had that huge mosque held down and we had to raid it, everyone of those people would be in a backwoods village in pakistan under intense interrogation. they obviously know something, now whether they will give it up or not is a questoin of thier own willpower to deal with pentathone in the bloodstream and leather straps across the back


just remember, the world didnt cry when that kid got beaten for keying a car all those years back. these people shoot other people. by doing that, i think they forgo any rights we give to people, simply because they deny those rights to thier many victims.


example,

what happens if we catch al zaqwari? we know he has contact with bin laden, we obviously know he has a source for weapons and explosives. if he wont talk normally, why would you object to chemical manipulation in order to break his will and save the 30 non-soldiers that die every day in the streets of Iraq. not to mention the future casulties that could be avoided if we get bin laden. why wouldnt you utilize every method to cut these people off at the pass? if you dont, you can only blame yourself when people die in the future

[pacific493]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

so you would sacrifice/risk lives to put morals over them?

If we sacrifice those parts of ourselves that separate us from the terrorists, we've already lost. If I had the choice between beheading someone to get information to save lives, I would not behead that person. Principles are more important to me.

[pacific493]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

not me, i'd introduce him to the pistol whip over and over again as long as i knew he was involved.

What if you had to use the pistol whip to determine IF he was involved?

these people shoot other people. by doing that, i think they forgo any rights we give to people, simply because they deny those rights to thier many victims.

Whoa...so now an individual gives up their rights by violating someone else's rights??? You really have no respect for any of the founding principles of this country do you?

if he wont talk normally, why would you object to chemical manipulation in order to break his will

To be honest, I'm not sure that I'm against using chemicals to get prisoners to talk. I am not sure that I would put that in the category of abuse or torture. I would oppose locking him in a fetal position to sleep in his own shit...the reason is because once we lower ourselves to their level, regardless of the nobility of our purpose in doing so, we've lost...we've become what we seek to destroy. Torture and abuse is morally wrong and downright un-American.

why wouldnt you utilize every method to cut these people off at the pass? if you dont, you can only blame yourself when people die in the future

If you could pinpoint Bin Laden's location to a 2 mile radius, would you drop a nuke on him? What if it meant killing 1 innocent civilian? Would you do it?

The reason I wouldn't do it is because America is not an "ends justifies the means" society or culture. If we give up who we are and engage in behavior that we condemn others for (Saddam, Castro, Amin, etc.), what have we gained?

[neoee]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk?

to save the many lives that terrorist would be glad to take if given the proper oppurtunity, then yes. like i said, i never want to be running down 5th avenue fearing for my life, and those of my family ever again. sad but completely true

Instead you'd rather others live in fear- anyone but you. Excellent approach.

On another note, we have many innocent people who have been put to death, being found guilty on such and such charge. When we can't even get it right with due process what says we will without? I've asked the question before, but what if it was your mom, dad or child that was being subjected to this treatment- would it still be ok?

[thesightless]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

certain people know that you have to do this from time to time. circumstances dictate that we do it. it doesnt make it right. but sometimes i do belive we need to step over the line to do it. it happens all the time. and my family was involved in a way, i lost my uncle john in 9/11. but i guess thats ok, because it didnt happen to you. if it took torture to stop what happened then i am all for it. would have saved a few thousand lives and prevented 2 dumb wars.