Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

[robprunzit]

Ok, I decided I post this link. I have feelings not to share this but I think many of you need to see this to get 'up to date' on who the captors are in Iraq, and why this kind of person has to be stopped.

This site I link is a conservative site many of you will hate, but there are the beheading videos and other pictures you should check out if you can handle it. I have to warn you, the videos are graphic, they are the real thing, and you may get sick, or be haunted by it for several days as I was. I will not see them again, but I think you should have the right to view this material and get an idea of the mentality of the rebel foreign fighters fighting to keep Iraq and the Middle East in the dark ages. They are living in a world I only have nightmares about.

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

Half way down the page on the left. Also, other good articles and things to link to and check out.

[thesightless]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

but they have to listen to rap music and cry about a book being dropped. for shame on us for even giving these people meals.

[robprunzit]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

And not to mention they have to undergo some harsh conditions so they will talk, and give the information to stop this REAL abuse.

I wouldn't like to be bound and sitting in my own shit, but thats not close to having your head cut off with a butcher knife and your head placed on your chest while a video mocks your death for the whole world to see.

Or to be prodded with sticks in the street after your body has been burnt to a crisp.

Personally, how do these people live with this kind of brutality. Old and young alike. I just don't get it.

[pacific493]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

And not to mention they have to undergo some harsh conditions so they will talk, and give the information to stop this REAL abuse.

I wouldn't like to be bound and sitting in my own shit, but thats not close to having your head cut off with a butcher knife and your head placed on your chest while a video mocks your death for the whole world to see.

Or to be prodded with sticks in the street after your body has been burnt to a crisp.

Personally, how do these people live with this kind of brutality. Old and young alike. I just don't get it.

So abuse is ok so long as there is something else worse out there? By that logic, getting your fingernails pulled out with pliers is not so bad because it's not as bad as having you limbs dipped in acid to slowly burn off.

Sorry, but you're justifying abuse. Both the beheadings and the abuse at GITMO should be decried...both are un-American and not acts worthy enough to be committed in our name.

[robprunzit]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

Excuse me, but there is very little evidence of any abuse at GITMO. Thats the point, not any justification.

Why do you people have to try to make something up different than the main points. Proof to me, you really don't care about the world; you only want to keep your dieing democrat-liberal party alive, hurt Bush, and forget about what else happens in the real time.

Real-Time is... The world is at war with Terrorist. Thats it! Only some are willing to step up to the plate and deal with it.

[pacific493]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

Excuse me, but there is very little evidence of any abuse at GITMO. Thats the point, not any justification.

But there is evidence of abuse...I haven't followed too closely, but I would say that an FBI report of a prisoner being chained in a fetal position to sleep in his own excrement constitutes evidence of abuse.

Why do you people have to try to make something up different than the main points. Proof to me, you really don't care about the world; you only want to keep your dieing democrat-liberal party alive, hurt Bush, and forget about what else happens in the real time.

Who ever said I was a liberal democrat...I'm not. I'm far more of a libertarian/independent than a lib-dem. And talk about trying to make something up different than the main point. You just went from talking about torture and abuse to democrats and Bush. Sorry Rob, but this isn't a political issue, it's an issue of who we are as a nation and what we believe in.

Real-Time is... The world is at war with Terrorist. Thats it! Only some are willing to step up to the plate and deal with it.

I would argue that many are willing to step up to the plate and deal with terrorism, both republicans and democrats. Fortunately, we also have those that are willing to step up to the plate to ensure that as we fight terrorism we do not sacrifice who we are in the process. You seem to believe that the ends justify the means and that goes against who we are as a nation and as a people.

[robprunzit]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

You seem to believe that the ends justify the means and that goes against who we are as a nation and as a people.

This is in every way a Political issue my friend. If you cant see that, than you are asleep at the wheel, need to understand how politics work, and follow it a little more closely by gaining knowledge on these issues from sources that are in addition to the local news and CNN, which only give slanted reports if even the whole report to begin with.

Well the latest reports from 5 Senators who just toured the prison, did not find any evidence of abuse. Any by the way, why don't you tell me how you would go about pulling the info needed from KILLERS to keep innocent people alive. I realize there are methods which should not be used, but there is a level at which the interrogated needs to be pressed if he will not give up the info freely. Again, we are at war. They want to kill Westerners and all like minded. So how would you do it, given we agree that we need to learn what they know about terrorism?

This has to do with saving lives, not killing or hurting these men, but extracting what they know. There has to be a 'grey' area in which to work to that end. I personally do not see a problem with the methods which have been recognized, ie, the constant reading of Harry Potter books, and playing loud Rap music for long extended amounts of time.

Maybe you think you can sit down next to one of these killers, and just ask him nicely to tell us everything he knows.

By the way, it has been proven these killers have it very good, for prison conditions. Why cant you mention anything positive?

The problems truly are not the items and distortions you mention, but your attitude and the left sided hatred for the president of the US ... Bush. Even if you are libertarian, your still siding with the left who want to hurt the moral of the troops and do whatever they can to hurt Bush and the Rep party, even if it means innocent people being killed, a war lost, a people not gaining the liberty-freedom they want and deserve to have.

You truly are not concerned with what happens in GITMO, but the clever constant drumbeat of attack on the president of the US.

To me, that is equal to siding with the enemy.

[pacific493]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

This is in every way a Political issue my friend. If you cant see that, than you are asleep at the wheel, need to understand how politics work, and follow it a little more closely by gaining knowledge on these issues from sources that are in addition to the local news and CNN, which only give slanted reports if even the whole report to begin with.

Wow! You know you really would have gotten somewhere if you had thrown in some bs about liberal activist judges, communists, socialists and Hillary Clinton being the anti-christ.

Where to begin. First, what does this being or not being a political issue have to do with what I was saying? I was pointing out that you adopt an "ends justifies the means" approach and that goes against who we are as a nation. Second, you really have no idea what my understanding of the political system is. Third, you have no idea what my level of knowledge on these issues are and Fourth, you have no idea where I get my news (which BTW isn't CNN and local news).

Well the latest reports from 5 Senators who just toured the prison, did not find any evidence of abuse.

I figured you would get around to citing that after you realized that your "lemon chicken" argument was never going to get you anywhere. To be honest, I would have been REALLY worried if the senators had seen signs of abuse because that would have meant that the folks running the show down there were completely fucking morons. Do you honestly think that GITMO (or any prison for that matter) would leave prisoners chained up lying in their own shit when 5 United States Senators were coming to tour? Of course they didn't see any signs of abuse...even assuming the FBI and other reports are true, any signs of abuse would have been cleaned up long before they got there. Remember when you were smoking weed in high school and didn't want to get caught doing it...you hid the evidence didn't you?

Any by the way, why don't you tell me how you would go about pulling the info needed from KILLERS to keep innocent people alive.

As I've stated before, I have no expertise in interrogation so I can't rightly say. What I can say is that I would NOT use tactics that are un-American and go against what we as a nation stand for. You, on the other hand, seem perfectly willing to sacrifice both morals and ideals in an effort to get information. Even assuming torture works (jury's out as far as I'm concerned), it's wrong and un-American.

I realize there are methods which should not be used, but there is a level at which the interrogated needs to be pressed if he will not give up the info freely.

Where do you draw the line?

Again, we are at war. They want to kill Westerners and all like minded.

More troubling is that they want to destroy our way of life...and there are many Americans who are perfectly willing to sacrifice who we are in an effort to protect it.

So how would you do it, given we agree that we need to learn what they know about terrorism?

See above.

This has to do with saving lives, not killing or hurting these men, but extracting what they know.

That's fine, but if we sacrifice our morals and ideals in that pursuit...what have we become and who are we as a nation?

There has to be a 'grey' area in which to work to that end.

I hope you have never bitched about liberal moral relativism because you're adopting the same type of philosophy. There does not HAVE to be a grey area...torture and abuse are morally wrong, period.

I personally do not see a problem with the methods which have been recognized, ie, the constant reading of Harry Potter books, and playing loud Rap music for long extended amounts of time.

Neither do I...I do have a problem with physical abuse, such as leaving detainees chained in the fetal position to sleep in their own shit or leaving them chained up for extended periods of time. Inflicting physical pain or torment on a detainee -- even if it's not done with a rubber hose or electrodes -- is wrong. There's no grey area on that regardless of how much Bill O'Reilly tries to convince his listeners that everyone sleeps in the fetal position.

Maybe you think you can sit down next to one of these killers, and just ask him nicely to tell us everything he knows.

I don't, nice try though. One suggestion...trying to pin a certain position on someone you're arguing with really doesn't work unless you know that they actually adopt that position. I could just as easily come back with: "No, but you think you can shove a cattle prod up his ass after crushing his testicles in a vice and get them to tells us everything he knows." See, it really doesn't work.

By the way, it has been proven these killers have it very good, for prison conditions. Why cant you mention anything positive?

Because we're not talking about how wonderful it is to be in GITMO and it's completely irrelevant to the point we're discussing...we're talking about a very specific issue (i.e. abuse of detainees) and if a detainee is suffering abuse, does it matter if he's being abused in a five-star hotel. Abuse is abuse and it's morally wrong.

The problems truly are not the items and distortions you mention, but your attitude and the left sided hatred for the president of the US ... Bush.

Hmmm...have I said I hated Bush? Have I mentioned Bush in this thread at all? Have I blamed him for GITMO? No. You really have a nasty habit of retreating to stock conservative attack lines (i.e. it's all about Bush hatred). You're the one bringing up Bush, not me. Personally, I don't connect Bush and GITMO...he doesn't strike me as a hands on kinda guy with this type of stuff, so my feelings for/against Bush have no bearing on this. I would condemn abuse of prisoners regardless of who was in the White House because, despite what you seem to think, torture and abuse is not a political issue.

Even if you are libertarian, your still siding with the left who want to hurt the moral of the troops and do whatever they can to hurt Bush and the Rep party, even if it means innocent people being killed, a war lost, a people not gaining the liberty-freedom they want and deserve to have.

Blah, blah, blah. Why don't you go ahead and call me a baby-killer or traitor while you're at it? Actually I'm siding with the ideals of my country...torture and abuse is as un-American as you can get. That is not what our country is about...it is morally wrong and has no place in a civilized and democratic society. Torture and abuse are the tools of two-bit dictators, not the greatest country on the face of the earth.

And now NOT using torture results in the war being lost and people losing liberty. Sorry Rob, using torture and abuse leads us down the road of lost liberty and freedom. Once we sell out who we are as Americans and the ideals that distinguish us from the dictators and terrorists, we have already lost.

You truly are not concerned with what happens in GITMO, but the clever constant drumbeat of attack on the president of the US.

You should really stop making assertions that you have absolutely no evidence to support. Again, I haven't attacked the president once in this thread (well until this post)...in fact, I haven't even MENTIONED him other than in response to your bringing him up.

I'm only concerned with what happens in GITMO insofar as I am concerned whenever the power of the american government -- power that is derived from you and I -- is used in a way that is antithetical to what this country stands for and who we are as a people. Other than that -- to be honest -- I don't really give a shit.

To me, that is equal to siding with the enemy.

Ahhh, you did decide to go there...so now I am a terrorist for saying that abuse and torture are morally wrong?

[robprunzit]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

You know guy, you and I have fundamental differences about how we would handle terrorist and Killers. Killers who would just as easily cut your mothers neck, or yours, or your baby sisters. Or shoot children in the back who are running to their daddy's safe arms.

Personally, I don't see any connection in all you have stated and overstated about the conditions as abusive or un-american. I personally do not think either one is the case. These killers being tied up in an uncomfortable fetal position isn't close to the discomfort of positions used in the past by many truly uncaring governments and/or Kings.

My feelings are very different than yours my friend. I hurt inside for the families of these guys who had their heads cut off and placed on their chest like a trophy to be displayed. I don't think it too terrible for them to suffer a little by sitting in an uncomfortable position in thier shit. These people are barely human. Yet in your kindness you want to worry about whats un-american. Where did you get that from anyway?

Whats american is that, under the Bush admin. the dictatorships have been taken down, and people are being liberated. So they cut our necks, and you worry that they sit in shit.

Think about what they are willing to do. Go watch the videos I linked on this post to begin with, and tell me why your so concerned that they shit on themselves. Why is that so bad? Hard, yes, harsh, yes, but abusive, well maybe yes. But wrong or un-american, that is where I think your taking it to a 'touchy-kinda-feely' zone that frankly makes me want to puke.

Watch the videos guy! What would you do, if it were your job to take these prisoners, who used a butcher knife and slit the neck of an innocent man?
How would you make them give up some info which might save someones life? And many of the people they are killing are Iraqi, Korean, Pakistani, and others I cant remember now.

Can you imagine yourself, sawing thru someones neck, struggling to get the blade to pass thru the last inch of neck which has the backbone. Why are you so concerned with some terrorist sitting in his shit? I cant figure that out. It seems more important to you that the enemy succeeds, than the innocent become free.

Sometimes I think you have to take some issues to extreme measures. I guess thats where the grey area comes in that I know nothin about. I personally couldn't shoot a dear with rifle at 50 yards, much less watch those videos again. I saw only a couple of them, I couldn't see anymore, without throwing up. I wonder how these guys could slice the neck of a living man, and not throw up. I wonder why you worry so much that they sit in their shit.

Personally, I could probably wish a little worse fate for these guys, a little harsher treatment in some cases than sitting in shit. I think pigs shit would probably be bit more abusive. I have 2 babies at home, they sit in shit until I change their diaper. You and I were born that way too. So personally, I think a little humiliation is not abuse, harsh yes, but abuse no. Not when we are fighting a war with people who probably will blow another bomb on American soil in the near future.

Shit, whats so damn bad about shit. These middleeastern people shit on the side of the road in a squatty position, and wash it off with water and their hand. You ever touched shit? I don't like to get it on me, when I change my kids diaper, but I also use paper on my butt, and not my hand. So maybe shit is a little worse to you and me than it is to these guys, who knows, the point is ... we all shit. And sitting in it would not be nice, but for cutting my american brothers neck, I think a little shit sitting is not too bad.

[pacific493]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

You know guy, you and I have fundamental differences about how we would handle terrorist and Killers.

Yes we do. I would handle them in a way that is commensurate with American and its ideals, you would jettison that in an attempt to protect it.

Killers who would just as easily cut your mothers neck, or yours, or your baby sisters. Or shoot children in the back who are running to their daddy's safe arms.

Is this going somewhere?

Personally, I don't see any connection in all you have stated and overstated about the conditions as abusive or un-american. I personally do not think either one is the case.

You wouldn't because you have already sacrificed the morals and ideals underlying America in favor of torturing and abusing detainees. If you can't see that chaining someone in a fetal position and leaving them to lie in their own excrement is antithetical to what this country stands for...well, you've already given the terrorists a moral victory.

These killers being tied up in an uncomfortable fetal position isn't close to the discomfort of positions used in the past by many truly uncaring governments and/or Kings.

Ohhh, I see...so it's all good because we're not AS BAD as Castro or Amin or Hussein? Sorry Rob, but we're not playing moral equivalence here. We're not comparing our actions against those of others to make sure we're on the right side of the moral equation. What has been allegedly done to the prisoners is morally wrong regardless of whether someone else has, at some time, done something worse.

My feelings are very different than yours my friend. I hurt inside for the families of these guys who had their heads cut off and placed on their chest like a trophy to be displayed.

No, actually our feelings are identical on that point because I grieve as you do for the people who's loved ones have been killed.

I don't think it too terrible for them to suffer a little by sitting in an uncomfortable position in thier shit. These people are barely human.

If you think they are "barely human," then I don't think you would stop at allowing them to sit in their own shit. Categorizing humans as such is the first step down the road to the worst types of atrocities suffered by mankind. Just remember Rob, in their eyes, we're "barely human" too because we're infidels or non-believers...that's what allows them to do the horrible things that they do to us.

Yet in your kindness you want to worry about whats un-american. Where did you get that from anyway?

Yes I do worry about what's un-American because whatever is done to those terrorists is done in your name and mine. The power that the government exercises is derived from us. And where did I get the idea that torture is un-American??? It is not a part of -- and has no place in -- any civilized society. A better question would be where did you get the idea that torture is -- in any way -- consistent with or supported by the ideals on which this country is founded?

Whats american is that, under the Bush admin. the dictatorships have been taken down, and people are being liberated.

Although we can quibble about the manner of implementation, I do agree that it is the purest expression of the ideals underlying our nation to used our power as a country to liberate the Iraqi people from the thug that routinely tortured and killed them.

So they cut our necks, and you worry that they sit in shit.

Yes I do because as soon as we say that it is ok to forget what it means to be an American or have a sincere and abiding belief in the concept of human rights, is the day that we begin to believe that it is actually ok to cut someone's neck if they are not aligned with your ideals.

Think about what they are willing to do. Go watch the videos I linked on this post to begin with, and tell me why your so concerned that they shit on themselves.

I know very well what they are willing to -- and in fact -- do. I have seen the videos. I am concerned about prisoners being abused and tortured because it is antithetical to the ideals of America. We, as a nation, do not engage in torture or abuse because those are the tools of two-bit thugs and dictators. I am concerned about it because it is beneath us and as soon as we stop striving to live up to the ideals underlying our country is the day that we become as bad as the terrorists.

Why is that so bad?

Because it is un-American.

Hard, yes, harsh, yes, but abusive, well maybe yes.

You should add...morally wrong, yes.

But wrong or un-american, that is where I think your taking it to a 'touchy-kinda-feely' zone that frankly makes me want to puke.

Yes, both wrong and un-American. There is nothing touchy-feely about demanding that our leaders and our government live up to the ideals of our country.

Watch the videos guy!

Already seen 'em. You're giving in to anger, hatred and fear Rob. You are letting those emotions dictate the actions that you are willing to put up with and condone.

What would you do, if it were your job to take these prisoners, who used a butcher knife and slit the neck of an innocent man?

I would not abuse or torture them. What would you do? If given the chance, would you cut their throat?

How would you make them give up some info which might save someones life? And many of the people they are killing are Iraqi, Korean, Pakistani, and others I cant remember now.

For the fourth or fifth time, I am not an expert in interrogation, so I can't say what I would do. What I can say is that I would not abuse or torture them. That is morally wrong and un-American.

Can you imagine yourself, sawing thru someones neck, struggling to get the blade to pass thru the last inch of neck which has the backbone.

No I cannot.

Why are you so concerned with some terrorist sitting in his shit?

It goes beyond the shit Rob. I am concerned with the accusations of physical torture and abuse because it is morally wrong to physically abuse or torture them.

It seems more important to you that the enemy succeeds, than the innocent become free.

Have you read anything that I have written? Where have I ever said that I am interested in the enemy succeeding? You don't seem to be listening or thinking about what I've been writing. My point throughout this debate has been that abuse and torture are tactics of our enemies and that I demand our country not lower us to that level. For you to say that it seems important to me that the enemy succeed just shows how little rational thought you have left in the face of the hatred and fear that seem to have consumed you.

Sometimes I think you have to take some issues to extreme measures.

I agree, but there are certain lines that are not to be crossed in a civilized and free society. Physical abuse and torture is one such line.

I wonder how these guys could slice the neck of a living man, and not throw up.

I hope that you never find out.

I wonder why you worry so much that they sit in their shit.

Because our country (or at least my country) is better than that.

Personally, I could probably wish a little worse fate for these guys,

That doesn't surprise me in the least. What sort of worse fate are you talking about?

So personally, I think a little humiliation is not abuse, harsh yes, but abuse no.

I don't really have a problem with that. Flush the koran, wipe menstrual blood on them...I have no problem with that. Physical abuse and torture...that's where I draw the line.

Shit, whats so damn bad about shit. These middleeastern people shit on the side of the road in a squatty position, and wash it off with water and their hand. You ever touched shit? I don't like to get it on me, when I change my kids diaper, but I also use paper on my butt, and not my hand. So maybe shit is a little worse to you and me than it is to these guys, who knows, the point is ... we all shit. And sitting in it would not be nice, but for cutting my american brothers neck, I think a little shit sitting is not too bad.

Try to minimize or rationalize it all you like, but the fact remains that the entirety of what was allegedly done to them -- shit and all -- constitutes physical abuse that is not what this country stands for.

[thesightless]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

you two really need to stop quoting each other. its just plain silly. you have differing viewpoints, that you cannot argue. use fact, not opinion. like i said b4, i would let them use some torture techs, while pac and eye wouldnt. just different views, you cant try to change each other.

peace

[neoee]

Rob- what is the most extreme level of torture you would allow if you were in charge?

Now with that in mind would it bother you if someone was innocent and taken in and tortured? Maybe 1 innocent in every 100? What if the number jumped to 5/10 or 7/10? What is an acceptable number of casualties? And know there *will_be* innocent people tortured.

Now what if one of these turned out to be your mom or dad, you would hand them over knowing they will likely undergo these forms of torture? Would it be acceptable in the name of anti-terrorism?

I've asked this before and am still waiting for an answer from one of you who is supportive of these techniques.

[pacific493]

Don't bother Neoee...I've asked similar questions with no response. He'll ignore your question and probably accuse you of hoping that the terrorists win. Rob's a lost cause...fear and hatred are controlling his response to this.

[pacific493]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

you two really need to stop quoting each other. its just plain silly. you have differing viewpoints, that you cannot argue. use fact, not opinion. like i said b4, i would let them use some torture techs, while pac and eye wouldnt. just different views, you cant try to change each other.

peace

Come on Sightless, I'm having fun with Rob...I love debating people like him who argue based on what they've heard on talk radio/Fox News.

[robprunzit]

Rob- what is the most extreme level of torture you would allow if you were in charge?

Now with that in mind would it bother you if someone was innocent and taken in and tortured? Maybe 1 innocent in every 100? What if the number jumped to 5/10 or 7/10? What is an acceptable number of casualties? And know there *will_be* innocent people tortured.

Now what if one of these turned out to be your mom or dad, you would hand them over knowing they will likely undergo these forms of torture? Would it be acceptable in the name of anti-terrorism?

I've asked this before and am still waiting for an answer from one of you who is supportive of these techniques.

If I was born to a terrorist, and had not been brainwashed into following their way of thought, or had been brought back around to what was morally right, I personally would not have a problem with my own parents being interrogated and forced to give the info we need to save other innocent lives.