Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

[robprunzit]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

you two really need to stop quoting each other. its just plain silly. you have differing viewpoints, that you cannot argue. use fact, not opinion. like i said b4, i would let them use some torture techs, while pac and eye wouldnt. just different views, you cant try to change each other.

peace

Come on Sightless, I'm having fun with Rob...I love debating people like him who argue based on what they've heard on talk radio/Fox News.

And I love debating people who argue based on the sightlessness of left sided emotion based thought. Just amazing to me how much of the thought comes from a lack of knowledge because all you will get from locals, the papers, CNN, and NPR is left sided crap.

Read an email from a friend today in Iraq. He said it is so frustrating to him and the other troops over there to see these reporters come in. They had a couple guys from a local in Washington DC follow them for a week, and what frustrated these troops is that the journalist didn't want anything positive. Nothing would be written down that was good, only what was bloody, and negative.

Lastly, he said we are winning this war, just the World and the American public are not allowed to hear about it because of the medias slant toward hatred of the war, need to show blood and negative commentary, and lack of desire to demostrate all the good happening in Iraq.

[neoee]

If I was born to a terrorist, and had not been brainwashed into following their way of thought, or had been brought back around to what was morally right, I personally would not have a problem with my own parents being interrogated and forced to give the info we need to save other innocent lives.

The question isn't if you were a terrorist but if you or your parents were wrongly accused of it like ~200 people in the US have been? As I stated before there WILL BE people wrongly accused, so for these people to endure forms of torture- is it ok in the name of anti-terrorism?

[robprunzit]

Don't bother Neoee...I've asked similar questions with no response. He'll ignore your question and probably accuse you of hoping that the terrorists win. Rob's a lost cause...fear and hatred are controlling his response to this.

Actually, what troubles me are you guys who aren't angry. Angry that a faction of another society want to take away our freedom, to limit our ability to help the poor of this world have liberty.

Fear and Hatred, well you can see it how ever you like, but I'm just sick and tired of the manipulations of the left.

We lost the Vietnam war because of the political bickering. I think those who would agree with Kennedy and his apologist are the scum of America. Though debate is good, these people are whats truly un-american. Not making some scum bag killer sit in his shit.

Sorry thats not an american moral issue, they really aren't hurt at all by sitting in their poo poo. Poor little killers sitting in their poo poo, how sad!

[robprunzit]

If I was born to a terrorist, and had not been brainwashed into following their way of thought, or had been brought back around to what was morally right, I personally would not have a problem with my own parents being interrogated and forced to give the info we need to save other innocent lives.

The question isn't if you were a terrorist but if you or your parents were wrongly accused of it like ~200 people in the US have been? As I stated before there WILL BE people wrongly accused, so for these people to endure forms of torture- is it ok in the name of anti-terrorism?

If my mom and/or dad were down in bunkers with guns hiding like all these guys who were caught, then I would want to know also. You think these guys in GITMO were nothing but taxi-drivers, another lie made up from the media.

If my parents were caught in the line of duty, fighting for the Taliban. If it were my parents, I would want to know too. I'm not so shallow as to want to hide them because of my relationship to them. There is right and wrong.

[robprunzit]

If I was born to a terrorist, and had not been brainwashed into following their way of thought, or had been brought back around to what was morally right, I personally would not have a problem with my own parents being interrogated and forced to give the info we need to save other innocent lives.

The question isn't if you were a terrorist but if you or your parents were wrongly accused of it like ~200 people in the US have been? As I stated before there WILL BE people wrongly accused, so for these people to endure forms of torture- is it ok in the name of anti-terrorism?

Excuse me Neoee, but where did you get your information that these ~200 "were wrongly accused of it like ~200 people in the US have been? "

What is your source that these people were wrongly accused, you know for sure, huh?!?

See, this is the misguided garbage that comes from the left. Sneaky little lines from the media to misinform and misguide the US.

Really, I want to know where you got that from?

[robprunzit]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

you two really need to stop quoting each other. its just plain silly. you have differing viewpoints, that you cannot argue. use fact, not opinion. like i said b4, i would let them use some torture techs, while pac and eye wouldnt. just different views, you cant try to change each other.

Your right, its too bad your 'thesightless', I really think you make alot more sense than they do, these other guys are truly 'sightless', because they can't see the big picture.

But, so much for funny stuff, what is happening over there in the mid east isn't funny. Those people have lived without freedom for century's, and now have a chance to have a life like yours and mine. Why cant we give them that kind of freedom. If we listen to the right sources, it is obvious that the Afghan, Iraqi, and even Iranian people all want the same freedoms as you and me.

As far as pacific493 is concerned, he and I would probably differ on capital punishment too. So it is a deep arguement, maybe deeper than this one topic can even handle.

He cant give a better way to handle these terrorist, or force them to give up the information needed save lives and win this war. But he can criticize, and call something un-american, yet there is no-other country on the planet that would not truly harm them as we have done.

Abused, I don't think so. What would I do someone asked, maybe I would use a form of psychological scare tactics alot worse than than making them sit in shit like my children do everyday.

Or, maybe I would use truth telling drugs, I don't know what happened to that side of the topic. Who knows, I think something has to be done forcefully to save the lives of innocent people, and its not an issue of american morals to use force to do so.

So I simply disagree with the guy (pacific493), and most of you.

Maybe this country will become run over with weak minded liberals, and we will be invaded by terrorist. Then you will all wish we had we had a strong military to protect us, or you, since I will be one of those killed running at them with a gun to fight and protect my country. While you hide under you beds blaming the republicans for not doing enough to protect our borders.

Guess who will be crunched down in a fetal position then, sitting in shit.

[neoee]

If I was born to a terrorist, and had not been brainwashed into following their way of thought, or had been brought back around to what was morally right, I personally would not have a problem with my own parents being interrogated and forced to give the info we need to save other innocent lives.

The question isn't if you were a terrorist but if you or your parents were wrongly accused of it like ~200 people in the US have been? As I stated before there WILL BE people wrongly accused, so for these people to endure forms of torture- is it ok in the name of anti-terrorism?

Excuse me Neoee, but where did you get your information that these ~200 "were wrongly accused of it like ~200 people in the US have been? "

What is your source that these people were wrongly accused, you know for sure, huh?!?

See, this is the misguided garbage that comes from the left. Sneaky little lines from the media to misinform and misguide the US.

Really, I want to know where you got that from?

Here we go talking semantics To be completely honest I do not remember where the figure came from though I'll dig up what I can. But what difference does it really make if it was 1 person or 1000, to me it does not. The fact remains, there *have been* people wrongfully accused and arrested under the guise of terrorism. Under your rules these people would be subject to torture, someones mom, dad, sister, brother or child. Forget the number above lets just assume 1 person, your mom and she is wrongfully accused- still ok? And then what ratio of innocent to guilty are you willing to sacrifice?

Examples of wrongfull arrests:

NORTHVILLE -- A pharmacist lashed out Sunday at federal law enforcement officials, who wrongly identified him as a suspect in a cigarette smuggling ring linked to terrorism.
Bassam Taysir Hammoud of Northville accused agents of sloppy police work because he was an Arab American.
"If my name were John Smith this would not have happened," said Hammoud, a U.S. citizen of Lebanese descent. "They would have double-checked to make sure they named the right person."
On Friday, 18 people were arrested and charged with smuggling cigarettes out of North Carolina to sell in Michigan and elsewhere allegedly to raise money for Hezbollah.
In an arrest warrant, FBI agents identified Hammoud, 34, listing his Northville address. However, they arrested Bassam Youssef Hamood, 33, of Dearborn. Hamood will have a hearing today in federal district court in Detroit.
TV and newspapers, including the Detroit Free Press in a front-page story Saturday, reported the pharmacist's name and hometown.
The Hammouds, both pharmacists who lived in Dearborn 4 1/2 years ago, own pharmacies in Dearborn Heights and Northville. Neither store sells cigarettes.
Hammoud's wife, Wanda, suspects federal agents got the wrong address using telephone records, even though the name was not an exact match. "They probably thought they were close enough," Wanda Hammoud said. "Close was wrong."
"You cannot comprehend how terrible this has been. Nobody has apologized."
Earl Woodham, a spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms said a correction was released. "Any apologies would have to come from management."
The Hammouds and their two children were vacationing Friday when his name was released from court records.
"Everybody knew me as Bassam Hammoud the pharmacist or Hammoud the businessman. Now they call me Hammoud the terrorist. ... Even friends think I was arrested. I won't be able to convince everyone I am innocent."

http://www.detnews.com/2000/metro/0007/25/a01-95375.htm

FBI agents used a USA PATRIOT Act "sneak and peek" search to secretly examine the home of Brandon Mayfield, who was wrongfully jailed for two weeks on suspicion of involvement in the Madrid train bombings. Agents seized three hard drives, 10 DNA samples preserved on cotton swabs and took 335 photos of personal items. Mayfield has filed a lawsuit against the U.S. government, contending that his rights were violated by his arrest and by the investigation against him. He also contends the Patriot Act is unconstitutional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act#Wrongfully_accused_under_the_Act

In the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3580002.stm

For taking pictures of a building:

http://www.2600.com/news/view/article/1441

[pacific493]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

And I love debating people who argue based on the sightlessness of left sided emotion based thought.

Too bad you aren't getting that from me, which I know is frustrating...you keep trying to fit me into that box, but I just don't argue/think like the Huffington's, Moore's or Begala's of the world.

Just amazing to me how much of the thought comes from a lack of knowledge because all you will get from locals, the papers, CNN, and NPR is left sided crap.

Dismissiveness is such a dangerous road to walk Rob. I disagree with the slant of coverage on NPR, CNN, Fox, Newsmax, Worldnetdaily, ABC, CBS, etc., etc., but there is something to be gained from each source. Dismissing one or other outright just shows your unwillingness to confront ideas/facts that conflict with your ideological predisposition. I don't like Fox because of their hypocrisy, but I generally get something out of it (beyond entertainment) each time I turn it on.

Read an email from a friend today in Iraq. He said it is so frustrating to him and the other troops over there to see these reporters come in. They had a couple guys from a local in Washington DC follow them for a week, and what frustrated these troops is that the journalist didn't want anything positive. Nothing would be written down that was good, only what was bloody, and negative.

Hmmm...perhaps that is because news is no longer a noble endeavor aimed at promoting the truth and educating people as to what's happening, and, rather, has become an entertainment outlet. If I was a reporter, I would be looking for the same thing regardless of whether I was covering a war or local news because the sad fact is that that is what sells and that is what careers are built on. People don't win pulitzers reporting on the safety of Iraqi children or the absence of torture. Look at all of the recent non-ideological stories that have dominated the media (the Holloway girl in Aruba and the 8-year-old in Idaho). They have both dominated news coverage because that is what people are drawn to. Conservatives whined for so long about how the media wasn't reporting on Iraqi schools or bridges being built...the reason is that no one really cares...if the average person gets to choose between coverage of a bridge in Iraq being built and the disappearance of a 17-year-old in Aruba, they'll choose the later almost everytime.

Is there bias among reporters...sure, but this persecution complex that conservatives have completely ignores the fact that negative stories attract viewers/readers at far higher rates than "positive" stories. Don't worry Rob, that same fact will work in conservatives favor the next time a dem is in office.

Lastly, he said we are winning this war, just the World and the American public are not allowed to hear about it because of the medias slant toward hatred of the war, need to show blood and negative commentary, and lack of desire to demostrate all the good happening in Iraq.

I know we're winning the war, I wish we were winning quicker so that your friend and my uncle could get out of harm's way quicker. There are problems in Iraq, some which could have been prevented, some not. But the blood and negative commentary make good copy, the positive stories don't, other than every now and then. Shit Rob, look at Fox, they're as biased in favor of the war as any MSM outlet and, although they do report on good every now and then, they have plenty of "negative" stories and blood.

[pacific493]

Actually, what troubles me are you guys who aren't angry. Angry that a faction of another society want to take away our freedom,to limit our ability to help the poor of this world have liberty.

Sorry Rob, but I'd rather win than get angry. Getting angry only leads to mistakes of judgment...I see it time and time again in my practice...the side that gets pissed off and angry inevitably makes mistakes that give up advantage.

to limit our ability to help the poor of this world have liberty.

As much as I agree with this sentiment, I so wish that it had been something other than a fallback position when weapons of mass destruction were not found in Iraq.

Fear and Hatred, well you can see it how ever you like, but I'm just sick and tired of the manipulations of the left.

Who do you hate more the terrorists or the lefties?

We lost the Vietnam war because of the political bickering.

I'm not so sure that we can chalk it all up to political bickering...I would say that we pulled out of Vietnam because of political bickering, but I think we lost the war because we didn't approach it with the right mindset in terms of the enemy we were fighting, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

I think those who would agree with Kennedy and his apologist are the scum of America.

Kennedy is a royal jackoff and that's his role in his party.

Though debate is good, these people are whats truly un-american. Not making some scum bag killer sit in his shit.

While I do not like Kennedy, I would hardly call him un-American. And it is far more un-American to abuse prisoners in our custody than spout the drivel that Kennedy spouts.

Sorry thats not an american moral issue, they really aren't hurt at all by sitting in their poo poo. Poor little killers sitting in their poo poo, how sad!

It is a moral issue because abuse and torture are morally wrong. I can see you have now moved your focus from the "Lemon Chicken" argument to "poo ain't so bad" argument, but you still ignore and fail to address the other alleged abuse...but then again, I doubt you chain your kids in the fetal position for 24-hours...you could try the O'Reilly argument that everyone sleeps in the fetal position, but I would hope even you would realize the ridiculousness of that argument.

Quick question Rob...would you want your friend in Iraq to be chained in the fetal position and left to sleep in his own shit if he were captured by the terrorists? If not, why not?

[pacific493]

Re: Sickness of Iraqs rebel foreign fighters - the beheadings

He cant give a better way to handle these terrorist, or force them to give up the information needed save lives and win this war.

Nice try Rob, but as I have repeatedly said, I am not an expert in interrogation, so I can't comment on what I think would work better. I would hazard a guess that you're not an expert in that area either, so you really don't know that torture works any better than other techniques.

But he can criticize, and call something un-american, yet there is no-other country on the planet that would not truly harm them as we have done.

So just because other countries would engage in conduct that is worse, it's ok for us to engage in something that is morally wrong?

What would I do someone asked, maybe I would use a form of psychological scare tactics

And that is something that I have said that I would not have a problem with either. In fact, I think psychological interrogation techniques are probably far more effective than physical abuse or torture. You seem to overlook the fact that I have said that I DON'T have a problem with such techniques, but it is more convenient for you to just place me in the lefty-box, dismiss what I say and spout off garbage about how I'm a traitor, than it is to confront the fact that abuse and torture are wrong and un-American.

alot worse than than making them sit in shit like my children do everyday.

Do your children sit blithely by while sitting in their own shit or do they wail until you come and change their diaper? I'm guessing the later, so it doesn't seem like they're as keen on it as you are making it sound.

Or, maybe I would use truth telling drugs,

Again, you ignore what I've written...I said I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with those techniques either, I'd like to learn more and I think there are some lines that should not be crossed when using chemical interrogation, but I am not fundamentally opposed to it.

Who knows, I think something has to be done forcefully to save the lives of innocent people, and its not an issue of american morals to use force to do so.

If our military could saves lives, but it required us to slaughter 1000 Afghan civilians, who we knew were innocent of any wrong-doing, would you approve of that? You are sacrificing our morals and ideals for a specific outcome. Rob, the hard part about ideals and morals is that they are hard to live by and often lead to unpleasant and uncomfortable outcomes. You are just like all of the relativist lefties who think that as long as the outcome or goal is just, whatever means used to reach the goal are justified.

Maybe this country will become run over with weak minded liberals,

Or maybe we'll become overrun by weak minded conservatives who are willing to sacrifice the very thing they are fighting for in an effort to preserve it.

Then you will all wish we had we had a strong military to protect us, or you,

What are you talking about...when have we talked about anything that would undermine our military?


[/quote]While you hide under you beds blaming the republicans for not doing enough to protect our borders.

I think most of the blame regarding the borders is coming from republicans/conservatives these days, unless you think Savage and Hannity are liberals.

Guess who will be crunched down in a fetal position then, sitting in shit.

No one, because we can -- and, in fact, will -- win without resorting to immoral and un-American tactics. Your doomsday scenario is very juvenile, unrealistic and completely degrades the power and might our country brings to this fight.