africa

[thesightless]

i think its bullshit that all these countries want thier debts forgiven completely. is it your creditors fault you fucked things up so badly? no. wahts next? forgive all the debt then increase aid? grrrrrr....... i hate this shit. i wish i could default on the 30k i owe from my masters, but i cant. these morons want billions forgiven.


""WAAAHH, we fucked up and cant control anything, let us off the hook and give us more money, WAAAHHH""--- fucking handouts dont solve anything. they should just bite the bullet and let businesses move in and create some form of economy. oh wait, free markets are evil.

this is my personal feeling. i clearly left out any facts or arguements. take it for what it is. my opinion.

[Jenks]

Re: africa

it sure would be nice if we (USA) could do the same and just forget all our debts.

man we owe a LOT. :cry:

[thesightless]

Re: africa

seriously, this is the main problem i have with the liberal left (and bush's right) is that these people are so beyond a lack of understanding of financing and economic issues. if you wipe the slate clean for an ENTIRE CONTINENT then the equation isnt balanced. we would need to wipe all worldwide debt for every country. i want to go up to Bono and ask him a few million from his personal assests, think he will give it to me. no he wouldnt. but the moment i left his property he would be asking someone for billions via a phone call.


grrrrr. i hate to say it, but this debt forgiveness is going to create a terrible idea that defaulting on monies owed is ok.

[Jenks]

Re: africa

...then there is the growing contingent that believes ending poverty will end terrorism and violence. Africa, being the poorest conteninent on the planet, is a good place to start. Debt relief...possibly a first step.


i THINK, that's the philosophy behind the idea you're having a problem with.

[thesightless]

Re: africa

no my philosophy stems from the fact that no one is held accountable for shit anymore. i would hold them to the debts and if collect if they couldnt pay.

basic example of not being held accountable.


in howard beach in queens NY. three young black kids went into an italian neighborhood where a hate crime was commited 20 years ago. they tried to steal one car and were chased off, they went to steal another and were caugfht by a kid named nic minucci. they jumped nic and held a screwdriver to his throat. in turn he got pissed, grab a friend and a bat. went right after the kids and cracked the skull of one of them. he got arrested.

my problems are.

1. they are trying miucci for a hate crime. he did commit battery, but not a hate crime. but al sharpton is down there saying white people hate black people.

2. the three kids have not been charged with anything as far as the papers are saying.

the kid got what he damn well deserved and now the minucci kid is the poster boy for hate crime when all he did was go after his attackers. my beef is the hate crime being laid upon the kid and the lack of charges on the other 3.


back to africa. they fucked themselves up by not doing things right. if they had these problems they should have fought to PREVENT them, not DEAL with them. they took aid money and since they were incapable of doing things right, they feel they can default. this isnt brooklyn and your welfare fund. its a fucking country's money they want to get relived of. they want more, but dont want to be held accountable for thier past indescretions. and if not, then pay up.

i say fine, forgive thier debt, but NEVER EVER AGAIN send a penny there, nothing, if ppl want to solve poverty and disease there on top of forgiving the coutrywide debt, then they should fund it out of thier own pockets. what did U2's last album gross out? the worlds nations arent charity. they are funded by us, for us.

[joker797]

Re: africa

this is my personal feeling. i clearly left out any facts or arguements. take it for what it is. my opinion.

thesightless - you got that right. I advise you to read up a little on how the situation in Africa has been created over hundreds of years of colonialism, the new era of this in the World Bank, the IMF etc. etc.... before going off on a rant like this.....

I'm by no means a liberal, but for f*ck sake man, have you ANY interest in learning what causes these things to happen?

[thesightless]

Re: africa

yeah i do, and i know what you are talking about, but its my feelings. handouts like this should not be done, they just are too large and will fuck things up..........


its a financial thing, not humanitarian. they owe a buttload of money to the world and they shouldnt be let off over feelings. contracts were signed and should be executed to the full. llike i said, the world's countries arent a charity.

[superdave]

Re: africa

Kinda of still on topic here, but a couple of quotes that I read from Bono and Geldoff about American support for Africa.

Mr. Geldof told Time magazine last month, "Actually, today I had to defend the Bush Administration in France again. They refuse to accept, because of their political ideology, that he has actually done more than any American president for Africa. But it's empirically so."

"I think he's done an incredible job, his Administration, on AIDS. And 250,000 Africans are on anti-viral drugs. They literally owe their lives to America," Bono said on NBC's "Meet the Press" a week ago Sunday.

[joker797]

Re: africa

its a financial thing, not humanitarian. they owe a buttload of money to the world and they shouldnt be let off over feelings. contracts were signed and should be executed to the full. llike i said, the world's countries arent a charity.

Who do you think signed those contracts? The people who are starving to death??? I don't think so - they were signed by corrupt officials who would have taken the money and fled to some nice spot in the South of France....

I don't believe it's right to punish innocent children for the years of corruption, brought about by the after-effects of colonialism and neo-colonialism.

I understand people's anger when it comes to aid, this has been going on for over 20 years and the situation still seems to be deteriorating, Africa seems like a bottomless pit for aid, with the money never properly filtering down to the people who need it, but that's exactly why the rules need to be changed, it's not just a matter of throwing money at it, it's about fair trade, debt relief, helping the people of Africa help themselves. I listened to a very interesting woman from Zambia recently (sorry can't remember her name...) who explained that the Government there used to be totally corrupt, but the people have woken up and aren't letting them away with it anymore, they watch every penny the Government spend and ask questions of them.

I know it's very hard to have hope that things can get better there, but what choice is there?

[Yao]

Re: africa

Lemme get back on this one later today...gotta do a bit of radio scheduling first ;-)

[qwerty2222]

Re: africa

its a financial thing, not humanitarian. they owe a buttload of money to the world and they shouldnt be let off over feelings. contracts were signed and should be executed to the full. llike i said, the world's countries arent a charity.

man, you are waisted
financial thing and not humanitarian?
you think the poor guys have internet there, or space plans or are buying land on the moon?
these guys dont have anything to eat.they dont have water cause they dont have the money do build a fountain cause they have to pay debts and interest to people who spend billions on building bombs
i'm sorry but you got it all wrong, people should help each other not kill each other
you want your money back cause you want to buy yourself an ipod, but the kid your taking the money from would need it to feed himself for a year
it's not that kids fault that he was born in a country with huge depts
if you think like that you're nothing but a miser

[Jenks]

Re: africa

[Yao]

Re: africa

Easy there...a difference of opinion can be voiced without calling others a miser.



@ sightless: the problem is twofold: there has to be a general change of mentality among those who are in responsible positions in Africa, and the debt should indeed for a large part be cancelled. Read a bit into it: the African Union is not just simply asking for more money: it's also about the ditribution of the money. The whole NEPAD plan is about making aid more effective, partly by reducing the burden on the payment balance, partly by encouraging transparent and responsible government, and partly by ecouraring the initiative in the African countries themselves: 'Demand based aid' it's called. Don't just give aid, but direct it to specified area's & projects, bypassing the government as a financial channel (and thus avoiding the skimming of fundings).

A 3rd side of the story is trade: NEPAD is also aiming for fairer trade tariffs. At this moment for example, every single cow in the Netherlans is subsidized with ?350 early. In the poorest regions, that can feed an African family for a whole year. It will be hard for agrarian sectors in Europe, Asia and the US, but fair trade & production means those subsidies have to go.

Furthermore, the tariffs that have been annulled are mostly those on non-competitive goods: goods that do not compete with regionally produced goods. How lame is that...So the rest of the tariff walls will have to go too.

Africa should primarily invest in 4 sectors: Health Care, Education (healthy and educated workforce, capable of making advancements in technology), infrastructure on all levels (roads, phone lines, internet etc), industry (work towards a technologically competitive industry for the export and the local market).

No matter how hard it sounds...these are IMO the prime conditions for economical growth, prolongued political stability and technological advancement. At the same time, a growing economy and political stability also are the conditions in which foreign investment is attracted: that would lead to a connection to the global market and an influx of foreign capital, which will enhance the position of those countries on the global market.

That is why the African Union is also hammering on free trade: it could help African countries to get the hard foreign currency which is so sorely needed to acquire equipment or services from abroad.


Fuck, I'already hafway my damn thesis here...that's all for now folks :wink:

[Jenks]

Re: africa

haha, yeah, i'm just joking with sightless with the scrooge thing, he's not a miser.

[Yao]

Re: africa

LOL, i was referring to Qwerty there....I know you were simply joking man. Don't beleive Qwerty meant to get rude, but still I had to voice it.