a message to cindy sheehan

[toasty]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

Maybe the emphasis should've been on Saddam's non-co?perative behaviour in the first place

I'd be curious to see how things would be different now if we had done this. I don't mean to suggest that the war itself would necessarily be fought any differently, but public sentiment might be different -- although there are still some Bush apologists out there that think he spins gold when he talks, most of the country is starting to realize that he just spins, period. The constantly changing rationale for the war is wearing thin with moderates who had been giving Bush the benefit of the doubt.

In contrast, if we had gone in there primarily on the legimate basis that Saddam was a fucking monster, that he was constantly thumbing his nose at the rest of the world, and that regime change was in order, the message would not have needed to change along the way; although things aren't great there now, Bush could stick with the message that, "this will take time but it is important and we have to stay the course." I doubt Bush would be in the political quandry in which he currently finds himself -- people might be unhappy with the status of the war, but he'd likely still enjoy the image of an honest, straight-forward and trustworthy guy (which, let's face it, is Bush's strongest quality as a leader).

Of course, it appears that Bush and Blair recognized that "Saddam is a bad guy" would be a tough sell before the UNSC (see Downing Street Memos). It probably would have taken longer before we could convince the world that his unwillingness to cooperate was worthy of regime change -- perhaps, in that time, though, we could have caught Osama bin Laden.

[thesightless]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

if the US gov't would isolate itself more, rather than having something to do with every single gov't in the world, people wouldnt be pissed at us and maybe they'd admire the fact that you can educate yourself, open a business and become wealthy if you try hard enough. but no, we dip the proverbial dick into every little hole we can find.

[Yao]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

LMAO

despite that Sightless, sometimes the US has indeed done what the rest of the world was unwilling to do. So Bush may be an arse, the US as a whole still deserves more credit than it is given now.

Toasty: I kinda get the feeling that is was more important to be more honest to the other UNSC members...and they should have out more presure on them. The man who taught the classes on the UNSC last year has been chairman of the Iraq Sanctions Committee in 1999 and 2000...it is because of his sharp and unbiased but critical observations that at this moment I know for myself why the UNSC will never be as effective as it can theoretically be, which is a damn shame really.

A broader consensus among the governments involved could very well have lead to a broader support among the common people. Not 100%, but still a significant part I suspect.

[FM]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

listen. i realize your son had the most unfortunate event. it truly is a shame that this world has to be like it is.

however, when he joined the army, he took upon the burden that he would have to go into combat blindly, taking the orders without question. i did. my brother has just started. the US army, unfortunetly is a police force that wears a bullseye on its back.

please do not disgrace the fact that your son died in service to the USA. he knew full well what he was into, and nowaydays, you have plenty of time(4 months) to back out before you are punished as deserter. you should give up your false quest against our leadership because you had the circumstance you do. my family, as well as thousands of others have had to cope with the fact that we might die in combat. we respect your son and hold him in higher esteem than any other US citizen. you cannot detract from what your son, my brother, myself and thousands of others have gave thier lives for. for shame on you. for shame. it was HIS choice, HIS decision. HIS actions. if anything realisze that you hate what YOUR SON did. not the higherarchy of the military chose. he could have ran. he could have deserted. he could have never joined.

its unfortunate that the media today has lead us to belive that it all falls on the hands of G. Bush, B. clinton, R.reagan. it doesnt. its on the few of us who have the guts to go out and risk it all for something greater. no matter what you think of it.

her acts have started to border on obsession...and the media of course is eating it all up.

Now she's temporarily left because of a stroke to her mom.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/18/crawford.protest/

Her husband's basically ready to divorce her, and her kids have begged her to come home....and she's willing to effectively tear apart her family for this protest/sit?

Ehhh once she leaves anyway, the media will discard her because it's yesterday's news... :?

[toasty]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

When this first all started, I was basically of the mindset that, "Hey, if you want to camp out in Crawford for 5 weeks to make your point, well, that's your right -- feel free." I actually liked the message as I understood it to originally be -- she wanted to discuss the war with the president, and was going to sit outside of his house until he did so. No violence, no fiery rhetoric, just sitting there and quietly waiting for a guy who was obviously never going to come out to speak with her. Simple, easy to understand.

Both sides should be ashamed for the circus that has since ensued.

The left should be ashamed for coopting her simple message to make a grieving mother the spokesperson for the democratic party, having her speak about anything and everything because she's evidently the only person on the left anyone will pay any attention to. She was quoted giving her take on the withdrawal from Gaza for fuck's sake! She's a mom, but the way the message has changed has diluted the simple message she started with to the point that it is hard to know what the message really is anymore.

The right should be ashamed for the smear campaign they've lodged against her. She shouldn't have been surprised, of course, for if anyone dare speak out against the right in this country, the Republican attack machine is unleashed. "If you can't deal with the message, slaughter the messenger," seems to be the M.O. for the right these days. Is there anyone beyond attack?

I think I've officially worn myself out giving a shit about what goes on in the political arena. Both sides are so incredibly fucked up and unworthy of our respect.

[thesightless]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

I think I've officially worn myself out giving a shit about what goes on in the political arena. Both sides are so incredibly fucked up and unworthy of our respect.

AMEN.

[robprunzit]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

She is a sad case of being used by the media for their purposes, but even worse is the same group protesting in front of Walter Reed Military Hospital where soldiers are recovering.

link and a video:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200508\SPE20050825a.html

[robprunzit]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

Nice try.

fuck you.

im glad you looked up a law. way to go. however, you still seem to apply only ideas that make your point rather than looking bigger.

the national guard is in Iraq for the reason we are in the midst of an invasion which is stretching our groups thin.(because ppl like you dont have any balls to do something beyond your own personal gain and motivation). the main 4 branches still wont operate here. i know this because right now my brother James is in fort bragg getting ready to go there, my cousin keiran is a US ARMY attorney operating in the pentagon, and i am former 525th (forensic accounting/fort bragg/99-01/mos#2002ACC). the Military you see at coronado bridge is most likely the NG or a division of the marines that is on shore duty. the P.C. Act was put on hold in order allow 4 divisions of the ARMY to operate in DC and NYC. they arent acting on an offensive, they are here and in DC to back up the NG units that are stretched too thin.

you also seem to be forgetting that the Baath party killed over 300k people in under 25 years. continued to create purified unranium cake while blix and crew were sent on wild goose chases. we have indeed found bacteria, there still seems to be a stockpile of missles, explosives and other choice weapons.

you keep crying about big oil companies. i understand you belive that the oil is the single and only reason any conflict occurs in the middle east. i cant change the fact that you are narrow minded.

So you are wrong, and I call you on it= Fuck You? Good job sparky.

1. The Coronado bridge is protected by Marines on loan to DHS. I know this because I live here. Oh, and my next door neighbor is attached to that unit. They are active duty. This is a clear violation of P. C..

2. The Baath party did not kill 300,000 people in 25 years. While they did kill over 10,000 with chemical weapons that WE sold them, and a whole bunch more in the Iran/Iraq war, they did not wholesale slaughter 300,000.

3. Uranium cake? Are you totally stupid? NO WMD. Period. The yellow cake episode has been debunked. In fact, the Bush administration apologized for including this in the 2003 SOTU speech. Did you miss this important point? If you did, you can look at the Rovegate scandal that is happening right now. Joe Wilson calling bullshit on this is the reason they outed his wife.

4. We found bacteria? Are you kidding? Bacteria? Bullshit. Bush said nukes. Condi said nukes. Cheney said nukes.

5. Other weapons? Stockpiles of weapons? Of course he had weapons! Should the Iraqi army have shot spitballs at their enemies? I cant believe that you honestly believe this.

For the record, UN and US inspectors have found exactly 16 banned Al-Saamud missles. They were not operable, but they were still banned under UN sanctions.

Checkmate.

Well, eye-p, I really don't want to get overly involved in this discussion, but I'll make a couple points I think worth mentioning.

You know it is easy to say anything, and make it sound true, even though it isn't true. And we all know, if you spew a lie long enough, everyone will believe it to be true.

1. The troops found an underground bunker which they believed was an experimental station for nukes.

2. The troops found certain shells which contained some other chemicals, maybe a small amount, risen, or something. But it was enough to kill 500,000 people if dispersed the correct way on a populated area.

3. Saddam admitted to having chemical weapons and documented the stuff, the problem was he never showed how it was destroyed, hence we went to war. Not to mention, it would be pretty easy to hide the stuff, if your really honest. I hid pot from my mom growing up, and she was always looking for it.

4. 300,000 were killed, how can you get off saying it wasn't so. How can you misrepresent the truth like that. And it happened against the Kurds, right after Bush 1 stopped the Gulf war and allowed Saddam to keep Iraq intact. Saddam asked to be returned his helicopters, and he then used the copters to slaughter the Kurds which were building a good offensive against Saddam. And yes chemicals were used. Its documented. A fact!

5. Then lastly logically, where were all the bombs he had to have just for normal defensive measures. I know some were found, but not much if I remember correctly.



4.

[superdave]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

Saw her on Bill Maher last night and she's really turned into a political force with her catchphrases and talking points. The liberal Bill Maher crowd loved her.

At first I didn't care for her story, but now the movement she's helped develop has become interesting. I wonder if our kids or grandkids will read about her in history class.

[bart_smastard]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

i have said this on another thread but i realy do believe the only way we will get dictators and rogue regimes to act responsibly is by going through the list assasinating or taking power from them by occupation .. alot of our soldiers lives will be lost doing this and we will create more terrorists by taking these actions howeva you have to play the long game , inaction will make the world a far worse place to live in 20 years time . and i'm pretty sure if u started wiping out heads of state who cause trouble and persecute their own ppl you would only need to take down a few before the others changed their ways

[eye-p]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

Nice try.

fuck you.

im glad you looked up a law. way to go. however, you still seem to apply only ideas that make your point rather than looking bigger.

the national guard is in Iraq for the reason we are in the midst of an invasion which is stretching our groups thin.(because ppl like you dont have any balls to do something beyond your own personal gain and motivation). the main 4 branches still wont operate here. i know this because right now my brother James is in fort bragg getting ready to go there, my cousin keiran is a US ARMY attorney operating in the pentagon, and i am former 525th (forensic accounting/fort bragg/99-01/mos#2002ACC). the Military you see at coronado bridge is most likely the NG or a division of the marines that is on shore duty. the P.C. Act was put on hold in order allow 4 divisions of the ARMY to operate in DC and NYC. they arent acting on an offensive, they are here and in DC to back up the NG units that are stretched too thin.

you also seem to be forgetting that the Baath party killed over 300k people in under 25 years. continued to create purified unranium cake while blix and crew were sent on wild goose chases. we have indeed found bacteria, there still seems to be a stockpile of missles, explosives and other choice weapons.

you keep crying about big oil companies. i understand you belive that the oil is the single and only reason any conflict occurs in the middle east. i cant change the fact that you are narrow minded.

So you are wrong, and I call you on it= Fuck You? Good job sparky.

1. The Coronado bridge is protected by Marines on loan to DHS. I know this because I live here. Oh, and my next door neighbor is attached to that unit. They are active duty. This is a clear violation of P. C..

2. The Baath party did not kill 300,000 people in 25 years. While they did kill over 10,000 with chemical weapons that WE sold them, and a whole bunch more in the Iran/Iraq war, they did not wholesale slaughter 300,000.

3. Uranium cake? Are you totally stupid? NO WMD. Period. The yellow cake episode has been debunked. In fact, the Bush administration apologized for including this in the 2003 SOTU speech. Did you miss this important point? If you did, you can look at the Rovegate scandal that is happening right now. Joe Wilson calling bullshit on this is the reason they outed his wife.

4. We found bacteria? Are you kidding? Bacteria? Bullshit. Bush said nukes. Condi said nukes. Cheney said nukes.

5. Other weapons? Stockpiles of weapons? Of course he had weapons! Should the Iraqi army have shot spitballs at their enemies? I cant believe that you honestly believe this.

For the record, UN and US inspectors have found exactly 16 banned Al-Saamud missles. They were not operable, but they were still banned under UN sanctions.

Checkmate.

Well, eye-p, I really don't want to get overly involved in this discussion, but I'll make a couple points I think worth mentioning.

You know it is easy to say anything, and make it sound true, even though it isn't true. And we all know, if you spew a lie long enough, everyone will believe it to be true.

1. The troops found an underground bunker which they believed was an experimental station for nukes.

2. The troops found certain shells which contained some other chemicals, maybe a small amount, risen, or something. But it was enough to kill 500,000 people if dispersed the correct way on a populated area.

3. Saddam admitted to having chemical weapons and documented the stuff, the problem was he never showed how it was destroyed, hence we went to war. Not to mention, it would be pretty easy to hide the stuff, if your really honest. I hid pot from my mom growing up, and she was always looking for it.

4. 300,000 were killed, how can you get off saying it wasn't so. How can you misrepresent the truth like that. And it happened against the Kurds, right after Bush 1 stopped the Gulf war and allowed Saddam to keep Iraq intact. Saddam asked to be returned his helicopters, and he then used the copters to slaughter the Kurds which were building a good offensive against Saddam. And yes chemicals were used. Its documented. A fact!

5. Then lastly logically, where were all the bombs he had to have just for normal defensive measures. I know some were found, but not much if I remember correctly.



4.

Funny you should mention lies becoming accepted wisdom, as long as they get repeated enough. As you and thesightless have found out, I dont usually speak about a topic unless I am right.

On the other hand, we can go right down the forum to find your threads, and, without exception you are proven wrong. Factually inaccurate.

Here, again, you are quite incorrect. I should address these points one at a time.

1. The troops have found NOTHING. No WMD's. PERIOD. NO PROGRAM. NOTHING. ZIP. ZERO. Do you understand that? They found nothing.
Further, a bunker is a bunker to the infantry. I would take a weapons inspector to determine what the bunker is used for. And, since every single report from every WMD inspector in Iraq has concluded that THEY HAD NOTHING, you are mistaken.

2. In Bagdhad in 2004 an IED was diffused by marines. It used shells that contained 15 year old chemical weapons material. Problem is, stuff like Ricin has a shelf life of 1-5 years. See the problem here? Right.
Again, expired Ricin in 2 mortar shells DOES NOT constitute WMD's. I am really not sure why you still dont get this.

Oh, BTW, feel free to google these incidents, along with the Duelfer report, or the CIA report, or the UN report if you dont believe me.

3. Sadaam did indeed have a WMD program at one time. In fact, we sold it to him! Thats right, the Reagan administration sold Iraq all kinds of WMD's in the 1980's. Didnt you ever wonder how we KNEW EXACTLY HOW MUCH HE HAD? Hello? Right.
So here is the funny thing about hiding WMD's. Its not quite the same as hiding pot from mom. See, if you hid pot from mom, she wouldnt find it and then use it to kill you or invade your bedroom. On the other hand, if Sadaam hid WMD's or "moved" them to Syria, why wouldnt Syria then attack Iraq with them? You cant be this gullible. You cant really believe that Sadaam would actually give away his WMD's, just so he wouldnt get caught with them?

4. The 300,000 dead number is totally inflated. First, he used WMD's against the Kurds and Iran in the Iraq/Iran war. You remember those weapons we just talked about? You know, the ones WE SOLD HIM? Right.

Second, after GHWBush pulled out in 1991/1992, he killed almost 25,000 kurds and others who attempted a coup. Again, this coup was instigated by US. Now, there have been more than 100,000 civilian deaths at the hands of US forces since the war started. How do you explain that?

5. The bombs. Where do you think all the "insurgents" got all their weapons? Try googling Al Qaqaa. We decided not to guard ammo dumps at all when we invaded. We instead guarded the oil infrastructure.

Look rob, you can live in denial for the rest of your life. But think about this: All of us on the "left" were screaming about all of this shit when the war started, while you on the "right" said that we knew nothing, etc...

Who has been right so far?

[heman15]

Re: a message to cindy sheehan

i think cindy sheehan is directly discreaditing what her son stood for he was old enough to make the decesion to join the forces and stand by the president in any decesion that he makes. It comes down to loyality to your country / president.

and thats what the son decided on

peace out