War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

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  • cneill
    Getting warmed up
    • Jul 2004
    • 79

    War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

    "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato

    I just started reading a book by Chris Hedges last night called War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning. Here are some excerpts:

    I think this one in particular may arouse some controversy
    "War is a crusade. President George W. Bush is not shy about warning other nations that they stand with the United States in the war on terrorism or will be counted with those that defy us. This too is a jihad. Yet we Americans find ourselves in the dangerous position of going to war not against a state but against a phantom. The jihad we have embarked upon is targeting an elusive and protean enemy. The battle we have begun is neverending. But it may be too late to wind back the heady rhetoric. We have embarked on a campaign as quixotic as the one mounted to destroy us."

    "When we ingest the anodyne of war we feel what those we strive to destroy feel, including the Islamic fundamentalists who are painted as alien, barbaric, and uncivilized. It is the same narcotic. I partook of it for many years. And like every recovering addict there is a part of me that remains nostalgic for war's simplicity and high, even as I cope with the scars it has left behind, mourn the deaths of those I worked with, and struggle with the bestiality I would have been better off not witnessing. There is a part of me - maybe it is a part of many of us - that decided at certain moments that I would rather die like this than go back to the routine of life. The chance to exist for an intense and overpowering moment, even if it meant certain oblivion, seemed worth it in the midst of war - and very stupid once the war ended."

    "War makes the world understandable, a black and white tableau of them and us. It suspends thought, especially self-critical thought. All bow before the supreme effort. We are one. Most of us willingly accept war as long as we can fold it into a belief system that paints the ensuing suffering as necessary for a higher good, for human beings seek not only happiness but also meaning. And tragically war is sometimes the most powerful way in human society to give us meaning.
    But war is a god, as the ancient Greeks and Romans knew, and its worship demands human sacrifice. We urge young men to war, making the slaughter they are asked to carry out a rite of passage. And this rite has changed little over the centuries, centuries in which there has almost continuously been a war raging somewhere on the planet...We call on the warrior to exemplify the qualities necessary to prosecute war - courage, loyalty, and self sacrifice. The soldier, neglected and even shunned during peacetime, is suddenly held up as the exemplar of our highest ideals, the savior of the state. The soldier is often whom we want to become, although secretly many of us, including most soldiers, know that we can never match the ideal held out before us. And we all become like Nestor in The Iliad, reciting the litany of fallen heroes that went before to spur ona new generation. That the myths are lies, that those who went before us were no more able to match the ideal than we are, is carefully hidden from public view. The tension between those who know combat, and thus know the public lie, and those who proagate the myth, usually ends with the mythmakers working to silence the witnesses of war."

    "War exposes a side of human nature that is usually masked by the unacknowledged coercion and social constraints that glue us together. Our cultivated conventions and little lies of civility lull us into a refined and idealistic view of ourselves. But modern industrial warfare may well be leading us, with each technological advance, a step closer to our own annihilation. We too are strapping explosives around our waists. Do we also have a suicide pact?"


    All this is from the introduction.

    and your comments...
    Go n-ithe an cat th? is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat
  • Yao
    DUDERZ get a life!!!
    • Jun 2004
    • 8167

    #2
    Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

    wow...
    Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

    There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

    Comment

    • robprunzit
      Are you Kidding me??
      • Jun 2004
      • 4805

      #3
      Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

      the last line:

      "Do we also have a suicide pact?''

      With Islam, no way. They are a deceptive foe, but will lose in the end. If we are speaking of a showdown with China, then maybe so. War with China could be very bad for all the world. Lets hope China doesn't invade Taiwan.
      AT THE FORK, TAKE THE RIGHT DIRECTION

      www.myspace.com/robroyfamily

      Comment

      • mylexicon
        Addiction started
        • Jun 2004
        • 339

        #4
        Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

        *snore

        Take another hit lefty What a twat.

        Of course war is meaningless and anti-productive.........so is doing nothing.
        Human struggle will abound whether you seek to manage it or not..
        Every human being has a flaw: We are all inherently selfish. It is the entire
        driving force in what we do. Even when we help others its because we want
        to, or because we believe it is right.

        War is a perfect illustration of what humanity is at its simplest. People killing
        one another, fighting for survival at all costs. People in war have nothing to
        lose and everything to gain. People who don't fight feel they have nothing to
        gain and everything to lose.

        Think about it. Do rich people fight wars.......not usually because they
        have too much to lose. That's why we're fighting this war. Bin Laden got
        100 or so important business people and some pretty sweet buildings but
        that stupid camel jockey also killed 2900 other average joe types (which
        indicates to me (a supporter of this war) that he is not a noble separatist
        trying to keep his lands holy). Now the middle east is a war zone.

        The rich people aren't fighting and I'd wager if you gave them a gun they
        probably wouldn't go to Iraq and start killing people.
        People who have (whether physical posessions or otherwise) are the ones
        who don't want this war and the people who feel they have already lost
        something or that loss is imminent are the ones who do want war.

        It is ironic that we as we gain more and more we actually become more docile
        and less aggressive. Which actually mandates that we must continue to
        develop and create wealth until all of our wants are met to achieve Utopia.
        Of course as we do this we move closer to our own destruction.

        It is a tremendous catch-22. We are faced with a horrible avoidance-avoidance.
        Bad things will happen no matter what we choose, but which way
        will lead to us losing less? That is the real question we are trying to answer.
        The other stuff is a facade we use to pretend we are more civilized than we
        really are. In the end it always boils down to: What is best for me?

        There is no reason we should try to fight it or deny it. Simply try to use that
        powerful motivating force to your benefit and to the benefit of others (Capitalism).
        Be a vegan......eat freedom fries..

        Comment

        • cneill
          Getting warmed up
          • Jul 2004
          • 79

          #5
          Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

          well i just spent 20 minutes writing a reply, but then my asshole computer freaked out on me and lost it. Basically it was something along the lines of the ironic fact that Hedges makes some similar points later in the book as mylexicon made above, particularly "Of course war is meaningless and anti-productive.........so is doing nothing" - mylexicon-. I think Hedges would agree with much of what mylexicon wrote. If you don't believe me, just browse through the book, or god forbid, read it (devils won't come screaming out to steal your soul, i promise). The quotes I posted were just from the introduction. In later chapters he goes further in depth about his own personal experiences in war and how they influenced his views of human nature and the adaptable properties of the human mind under extreme conditions demanding adaptation for survival. Of course, it's very opinionated and certainly not written with intent of objectivity, but that's what makes it interesting. I think his main goal in the book is to make the reader aware of what really happens in warfare and the how the forces that shape a war affect individuals and collective groups, as well as how these same individuals and collective groups affected by war contribute to the forces that shape it. He's not writing for passivism, and he states so in the book.
          Go n-ithe an cat th? is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat

          Comment

          • Neil Hamburger
            Fresh Peossy
            • Apr 2005
            • 40

            #6
            Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

            [quote="cneill"]If you don't believe me, just browse through the book, or god forbid, read it (devils won't come screaming out to steal your soul, i promise).quote]

            How sad. The guy's clearly more intelligent than you are and you prove this by insulting him in a round about, cowardly way.
            It's NEEEEEEIIIIILLLLLLLL HAAMMMMBUUURRRGGGERRR!

            Comment

            • eye-p
              Getting Somewhere
              • May 2005
              • 101

              #7
              Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

              Looks like a good read. I will have a go at it after the one I am reading now.
              Peak Oil

              Comment

              • cneill
                Getting warmed up
                • Jul 2004
                • 79

                #8
                Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

                Originally posted by Neil Hamburger
                quote="cneill"]If you don't believe me, just browse through the book, or god forbid, read it (devils won't come screaming out to steal your soul, i promise).quote]

                How sad. The guy's clearly more intelligent than you are and you prove this by insulting him in a round about, cowardly way.
                ok ok, i must admit it was a cheap shot, but i got a little inflamed from his "twat" comment. I merely presented some obviously controversial material for discussion (without any indication that I am convinced of its truth or am advocating it), and the guy had to go and just dismiss the whole thing by opening his reply with "*snore Take another hit lefty What a twat." How intelligent is that? The rest of his reply was quite well thought out and impressive, but the first few words of his post make clear his close minded approach to discussion. If he read the book, he might find some of the major points quite agreeable, and many quite disagreeable, and that's fine. But really, does a comment like that do anything but immediately divide the discussion into a polarized argument. If he had just said his piece, then the comment I made would never have occured to me, because like you said, the points he makes are very intelligent, and ironically, quite agreeable with the overall points Hedges makes in his book.
                Go n-ithe an cat th? is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat

                Comment

                • bart_smastard
                  Gold Gabber
                  • May 2005
                  • 980

                  #9
                  Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

                  war is a way or erradicating the weak .. just another form of gene pooling

                  evolution topics is discussed on another thread and war belongs there

                  Comment

                  • mylexicon
                    Addiction started
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 339

                    #10
                    Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

                    Yes, I am sure that we share many of the same beliefs.....but I think that
                    we have differing opinions on what people should do with them. The excerpts
                    posted made it sound like he was writing a wake-up America! type piece.
                    You know, the kind that wants you to drop everything and immerse your
                    self in an ocean of self-doubt. The kind that tries to convince you that human
                    nature is actually a complex conspiracy propagated by "them". He calls our
                    war effort a "jihad" which simply exploits the negative conotations of the word
                    to evoke strong feelings that ultimately stunt free thought. Of course, his
                    book tries to make his beliefs look like reason, but i think we all know deep
                    down that promotion of war or opposition to war is not something that can really be reasoned out.

                    That's why I'm trying to say.......don't stop! Continue onward and upward on the same
                    mission. People will never be perfect.......we chose a path we thought was
                    most workable given the circumstances. Self-critical thought and doubt is
                    only going to make the situation worse. Look for new opportunities to do good
                    everyday instead of re-evaluating all the actions you have already taken.
                    I'm sure hedges has suffered greatly from his time in combat, but the only
                    thing more lethal than combat itself are feelings of worthlessness and self doubt.

                    From the excerpts it didn't seem that hedges wanted to help guide America, but
                    rather to discourage those of us on a cultural "narcotic" and help
                    promote "self-critical thought". I really don't know who he hopes to aid
                    with this book. The excerpts seem to clearly state "If you read this book
                    your happiness and understanding of life will be destroyed, but you will be
                    enlightened. All I ask in return for this service is $29.95; cash, check or
                    charge." Seems reasonable.


                    Thanks but no thanks, hedges, I think I'll just remain on the narcotic, and
                    while I'm at it I'll send the $29.95 that I have been blessed with to people who actually need it.
                    Be a vegan......eat freedom fries..

                    Comment

                    • cneill
                      Getting warmed up
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 79

                      #11
                      Re: War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning

                      fair enough

                      and i think this is pretty accurate - "From the excerpts it didn't seem that hedges wanted to help guide America, but rather to discourage those of us on a cultural "narcotic" and help promote "self-critical thought". - I think this is a major theme of the whole book, not just the excerpts. But I think he does want to guide America, guide it to self critical thought, the people and the government. Whether that is the right place in which to be guided is surely open to debate.
                      Go n-ithe an cat th? is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat

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