Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

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  • cowardly dj
    ZangerBob
    • Jun 2004
    • 645

    Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

    So I said a few weeks ago that I was going to post some intersting stuff that supports the fact that there was a creator (God) and we and the earth are not just a happen chance. I have dug deep into my studies to bring some interesting things and I know that people here (especially ecrypt and jenks ) like to discuss things that make you go hmmmmmm. So lets get started.


    The first thing I would like to toss around is a thing called symbiosis. This is an area that strongly supports a creator and not what some would like to say the "big bang". A symbiotic relationship is one in which 2 organisms live in such a close relationship that one cannot live without the other. Certain plants cannot live without certain insects that pollinate them or clean them or store up certain nutrients for them. At the same time, the plant provides nourishment and/or protection for the insect. Sometimes such relationships exist between 2 plants or 2 animals, like the man-of-war jellyfish and the tiny fish that live among its tenticles and yet never get stung. These types of two-way symbiotic relationships are difficult to explain by natural causes because the question arises, "Which came first?"

    If you agree that there are problems answering this question with two codependent life forms, how much more difficult do you think it would be to explain the simultaneous evolution of three? Yet this is what we find with a leaf-cutting ant species in South America whose colonies may contain up to eight million ants, ( a number which surpisingly represents the collective biomass of an adult cow.)
    These particular ants cultivate mushrooms as a farmer cultivates crops, using leaf cuttings instead of soil. The ants are not able to eat the leaves because the leaves contain a natural insecticide. Neither can the mushrooms live on the leaves because the surface of the leaves is coated with a prohibitive wax.
    To make the relationship work, the ants must carefully avoid the poison as they scrape the wax off the leaves. Without the wax, the leaves are able to decay into a mulch in which the mushrooms can grow. The mushrooms, in turn, harmlessly absorb the insecticide, converting it into an edible food for the ants called gongylidia. Neither creature could live without the other. Scientists have know about the dual nature of this symbiosis for a long time.
    However, recent studies have revealed another partner necessary to sustain the ant/mushroom relationship. The mushrooms have a parasite enemy that would normally destroy them, but they can be protected with an antibiotic produced by a special bacterium that, coincidentally, lives on the ants' bodies. So the bacterium depends upon the host ant's body for life. The ant depends upon the food produced by the mushrooms for life. And the mushrooms depend upon the ants' farming practices and the ants' pet bacterium for life.
    This three-way relationship is irreducibly complex. If any one of the partners is missing, the entire group dies. The only way such a codependent society could be produced is by intelligent design.

    The biggest problem in trying to explain this being an accident would be, who came first, how did the other survive while the other evolved into its role in the relationship. Evolution form single-celled blobs just does not explain such complicated relationships in the scheme of life.

    I have many more things to post but I will let you feed on this for a bit, while I type the other thigs as they are a bit more in depth and deal with the mathematical probability of the earth accidentally forming conditions to support life.
    Greatly rejoicing in following God as a freedom not a choice.
  • cowardly dj
    ZangerBob
    • Jun 2004
    • 645

    #2
    Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

    Another thing I just thought of I want to post. Anyone ever heard of the angler fish. Without a creator/designer how do you explain how the fish got the wormlike appendage it suspends in front of itself to attract other fish within its "gobbling range". How did it survive before it got its built-in fishing tackle if it evolved from a single-celled blob?
    Greatly rejoicing in following God as a freedom not a choice.

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    • skahound
      Someone MARRY ME!! LOL
      • Jun 2004
      • 11411

      #3
      Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

      Why do the ants have to cultivate mushrooms? I understand that the mushrooms produce an edible substance, but if that substance didn't exist then the ants would be forced to find alternative food sources. I'll await further postings before I form an opinion one way or the other.
      A good shower head and my right hand - the two best lovers that I ever had.

      Comment

      • bart_smastard
        Gold Gabber
        • May 2005
        • 980

        #4
        Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

        O.K. cowardly ... evolution and adaptation take time . millions of years . everytime a species gains the mearest hint of an advantage it's genes propagate and it dominates until it either exhausts it's food supply / another strain of it's species gains a better advantage or a predator revelling on it's new found abundance of food produces more offspring than had done in the past because it can now feed them . it's called striking a balance . it's the way nature works .this can all be put down to science not some mystical hand . if you realy wanted to come at us with the intelligence design aspect and show us the hand of god working it's wonders you should of gone smaller than ants and bacteria and instead chose to research for protiens ( i do read all science stuff ) these are the building blocks for life ( more intrinsic to who we are than D.N.A. there are simplistic 5mm worms with longer more complex D.N.A structures than our own ) but scientists believe it's proteins that make the human species so different not going to go into it all here because :ie(A) it would take around 3 pages of text .and.(B) i ain't that smart . Anyhows what's puzzinling scientists is how 8 protiens could suddenly start to co-exist at the same time .This is the only logical argument fueling the creationist theory .
        Anyhows i have said this on a similar thread somewhere else on mercury but it's one of my faves so i'll say it again
        Backing the creationists is a school teacher who is teaching her children that dinosours where on the arc too . Way up how big this arc would be that noah built . to fit all the species that exist now and all that ever existed .Twice the size of Manhatten would not be a poor guess .. and picture this one if you could . Noah pushing a teranasaurus rex up the gang plank

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        • cowardly dj
          ZangerBob
          • Jun 2004
          • 645

          #5
          Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

          i have a good bit of info on complex protiens that I will post for you bart. I am just throwing things out as food for thought. I am jusut getting warmed up and I will be posting more later but it is in depth and will be a long read so I am making it in word and will paste it here at a later time.
          Greatly rejoicing in following God as a freedom not a choice.

          Comment

          • hulkhuss
            Are you Kidding me??
            • Jun 2004
            • 3699

            #6
            Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

            http://www.mixcloud.com/RMasie/

            http://soundcloud.com/r-masie

            https://www.facebook.com/R-Masie-117851198318029/

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            • bart_smastard
              Gold Gabber
              • May 2005
              • 980

              #7
              Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

              well why start with the ants thing ? it is a flawed argument . the symbiotic relationship of protiens and how they came to form is the only serious unexplained argument that could substantiate the creationist theory. but science and common sense been shooting holes in everything the bible says is true about how we came to be for ages . we don't understand protiens at all yet because of the microspic scale and the speed at which they work at .and when they do godbotheres will have one less straw to grasp at

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              • nicomax
                Gold Gabber
                • Jun 2004
                • 667

                #8
                Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                The complexity of nature is indeed amazing but does not mean that a creator was involved. For millions of years some species have developed that kind of symbiotic or mutualism relations.

                Why would a creator allow for parasite relations where one species takes advantage of the other? Why would a creator allow species to extinguish, even without the intervention of humans?
                Nicomax

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                • asdf_admin
                  i use to be important
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 12798

                  #9
                  Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                  God made me. There is nothing I can do about it.
                  dead, yet alive.

                  Comment

                  • bart_smastard
                    Gold Gabber
                    • May 2005
                    • 980

                    #10
                    Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                    Originally posted by asdf_admin
                    God made me. There is nothing I can do about it.


                    the essance of who you are is a totaly different subject to the one i'm arguing here asdf . this is about physical existance . and i presume ure talking about spiritual .
                    ( i hope u are because i was happy how our last discussion on a similar subject ended )
                    awareness and consciousness are philosophical /ecrononimical discussions and i know zilch about such things so i won't get into that type of discussion

                    Comment

                    • hulkhuss
                      Are you Kidding me??
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 3699

                      #11
                      Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                      GOD is Good
                      http://www.mixcloud.com/RMasie/

                      http://soundcloud.com/r-masie

                      https://www.facebook.com/R-Masie-117851198318029/

                      Comment

                      • toasty
                        Sir Toastiness
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 6585

                        #12
                        Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                        Originally posted by cowardly dj
                        what cowardly dj said
                        That's all very interesting, that such things occur in nature is obviously fascinating. In what way does this mandate the existence of God, though? The reasoning seems so circular, i.e., "there has to be a creator because there just does -- nature couldn't be this complex on its own." Why can't it be that complex without divine assistance?

                        There are patterns and relationships all throughout nature. Why can that not be the result of science? For example, when crystals crack, many cleave along a perfectly straight surface -- we know, however, that that is a result of molecular structure. Is it God's will that the molecular structure would lend itself to perfect breaks? Maybe. But maybe's it's just the way that it is.

                        Ultimately, a belief in God is based upon the ultimate blind faith -- taking as fact something that cannot be proven or disproven. There is probably nothing that could occur that would undeniably prove or disprove the existence of God. If you feel the touch of God in your life and it makes your life better, outstanding. Despite my arguing with you on this point, I probably even believe in some sort of overarching guiding force myself, whatever you would call that. The simple existence of amazing things in nature, however, doesn't prove to me anything more than that nature is truly amazing.

                        Comment

                        • hulkhuss
                          Are you Kidding me??
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 3699

                          #13
                          Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                          why are we here???
                          http://www.mixcloud.com/RMasie/

                          http://soundcloud.com/r-masie

                          https://www.facebook.com/R-Masie-117851198318029/

                          Comment

                          • bart_smastard
                            Gold Gabber
                            • May 2005
                            • 980

                            #14
                            Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                            toasty .. it makes you an agnostic . you believe in god but not religion . same as me .
                            i believe vanity fuels religion . the desire to feel important / special / chosen .
                            but as u also said if religion works for you great , just don't force it on everyone else .
                            we all hold beliefs none of us go through life not questioning subjects like this . but i just wish these religeous types wouldn't try teaching us science . they get ripped to pieces everytime

                            Comment

                            • skahound
                              Someone MARRY ME!! LOL
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 11411

                              #15
                              Re: Creation... intelligent design or happen chance?

                              Originally posted by toasty
                              The reasoning seems so circular, i.e., "there has to be a creator because there just does -- nature couldn't be this complex on its own."
                              Exactly. One can draw a correlation between any two items they want, but whether there's causality is a massively different and more important question.
                              A good shower head and my right hand - the two best lovers that I ever had.

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