Holland is waking up?

[Yao]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4341784.stm

Seems there is finally something done, though not nearly enough IMO. That Samir Azzouz guy should've been behind bars already, it's fucking ridiculous that he was acquitted even though he had blueprints of govt structures such as in Tha Hague. Judge's comment: "Any man can simply be interested in a building and it's construction..."

Yea right. Especially and extemist Muslim who is already a suspect of planning a terrorist attack. That judge should have been fired the instant he made that totally idiotic statement.

[Weizy]

Re: Holland is waking up?

you guys have terrrorists in Holland? damn! that is pretty spooky they let a guy with blueprints walk. here in the USA that guy would have been getting raped in guantanomo by now

[Yao]

Re: Holland is waking up?

I wish we could send them there...

[bart_smastard]

Re: Holland is waking up?

arn't u guys banning the hijab aswell yao same as france . it was in my paper the other day . totaly for this move btw i prefer individualism not secularism . may seem racist in the short term but forcing them to intergrate is a alot quicker than waiting for them

[Yao]

Re: Holland is waking up?

Not sure about that I must say, although I believe they are considering doing it at least for people in certain professions. The Burqa (is that the same as the Hijab? - covering the whole body, including the face?) might be banned alltogether, and I totally agree with that.

People that choose to live in a place with a different culture than theirs, should also make the choice of adapting that culture for a part. You cannot change who you are, but you can certainly respect your host-culture insomuch that you abide by the most important social rules IMO. Western women aren't allowed to wear shorts in large parts of the Arabic and Muslim world, so how come that respect and obedience to local habits should not be reciprocal?

I will refuse to talk to anyone who will not show me their face. Period.

Oh, and I am definitely for secularism too...any religious influence in state manners hampers the rationale behind decisions made, so it should stay the fuck out of the realm that also touches my life...(by influencing politics, religion also infuences my life indirectly, and I do not wish for that to happen to any degree).

[superdave]

Re: Holland is waking up?

Seems like much of Western Europe is changing the way it views its growing Islamic population. With the birthrates of Muslims much higher in European nations than others, the concept of Eurabia in the future is becoming reality.

[Yao]

Re: Holland is waking up?

Not if I can help it.

[Weizy]

Re: Holland is waking up?

so how large is this muslim population in holland?

or better yet what percent of Holland's population is of Arab descent?

Yao, do you have any idea?

[Yao]

Re: Holland is waking up?

890.000 Musims out of a little over 16 million people...

Most Dutch people are not opposed to Muslims or Arabs per s?, but they are starting to resist the increased cultural and even political influence our over-liberal governments have been granting them in the past decades. There are a number of Muslims or Arabs that are fully integrated here and that are part of our government, and the most significant of their treats is that they have as a whole adapted our society and integrated their beliefs into our common system of norms and values.
For that matter, I (and I believe many other dutchmen) do not consider them 'outsiders' to our culture: they are to me basically the same as Christians or Buddhists, in the scope of our societal mixture.

But I cannot reconcile myself with the thought of Muslims creating a political party and participating in Dutch politics with an alien set of norms and values! It is so that right now there is a Muslim political party, but the problem with it is that is does not, as it states to do, represent the interests of a political minority, but those of a religious minority. Is it by default for a Muslim political party not possible to be secular in nature: Islam does not recognize a separation of State and Religion, so a political party based on Islam can therefore not adopt secular statutes IMO.

And this shows the weakness of democracy as it is exercised here: even religious groups get acces to (part of) state power when they enter the democratic process when secularity is not properly secured: given the fact that there are about 2 or 3 orthodox Christian political parties in this country that are also allowed to participate in politics (which also ensures that the Muslim party cannot effectively be barred from participation unless ALL religiously founded political parties are barred), this is by far not the case around here.

In that respect, most European countries should take a good look at the Turkish system, and see that they apply an adapted form to their own politics, if they are to ensure the continuation of our culture.

[Weizy]

Re: Holland is waking up?

the clash of church and state is always a strange one eh? but what to do about this type of situation?

muslim belief in their religion being a part of everything including government will continue to be a problem for many european countries and surely in time the united states. if we wish to have true democracy then shouldn't these people(however radical) be allowed to have representation?

therein lies a really rock and hard place. allowing them representation could open the floodgates for god knows what? but deny these people a place at the table and a serious backlash could occur

[Yao]

Re: Holland is waking up?

No it won't, if people would finally stop idealazing democracy: it is not reconcileable with religion, plain and simple. But here, people just keep concentrating on the fact that it is unconstitunional to deny people their part in national politics, while sometimes to preserve the balance, you must bar some groups from political acces, because their whole system of beliefs, norms and values will intrinsically oblige them to push those on their environment.

A clear distinction should be made between 'interest groups' which are divided by political ideals, and religious groups. Politics include the whole population of an area in which it has influence (at least here in the West) and is meant to serve the interests of that whole population, regardless of any personal occupations. Religion however is exclusive, in that it means to serve only the interests of it's own supporting group, and wishes to force it's (predominantly) moral structures on every peripheral group within it's influence range.

If democracy is really executed in it's most liberal way, it leaves open a big gap through which non-democratic institutions, such as religions, may seize power, ultimately turning the weakness of an open system into an advantage to themselves. In other words: a too liberal or open democracy can easily be threatened by 'predating' or 'parasitic' systems.

[Weizy]

Re: Holland is waking up?

i totally agree

[Hos]

Re: Holland is waking up?

it's not illegal to have a blueprint to a building

no one should be jailed or arrested for that

[Yao]

Re: Holland is waking up?

But it is in combination with all his other actions Hos, such as preaching hate, being a member of an extremist group know to be planning attacks and whatnot...

Remember that standoff in The Hague where they arrested a whole gang that was hiding in a house, and SWAT teams were used to get them out? That was in the street fucking opposite where my best GF lives man, I pass by there regularly. Those bastards live among us unhindered, and prepare their plans to kill us. And that Samir Azzouz guy they arrested last friday along with 6 others, was a laborant in Leiden. Yessir, where you visited me. Each time I go to the univerisity sports centre I pass by the building he worked. It's pretty damn scary that I have most likely seen the guy at multiple occasions (I know where to find a few mosques around here), and whereas I was hoping the mosques here weren't the breeding places of extremism, I fear that that is exactly what one or more may be. Maybe even the one standing next to my university building. I can see them, hear them, touch them, I smile at them each time I pass by that place, and they smile back at me. And behind that smile they might be thinking: "Smile young man, but you might be next. You are an infidel, breed of evil, and ought to embrace our way or die like the dog you are".

It's fucking scary Hos, it's just scary you know?

The Muslim community here keeps apologizing, saying that Islam is not violent. But at the same times, those extremist fucks keep popping up like mushrooms, literally right next to me. I may be a liberal in some people's eyes on this board, but my respect for other cultures goes only so far as their respect for my culture. It's not fair to generalize, but at this moment I'm quite suspicious of Muslims in general, and might unfortunately become more and more cautious when it comes to contact. I know a few, and know they're ok, but there are 'sleepers' among us. They can be your friend, or so you think, and the next day the world is turned upside down.

Point of my rant is: I've always been someone that actually seeks a lot of contact with other cultures, that takes people from 'outside' for who they are and let them into my realm. But that is becoming dangerous, and I'm vulnerable to abuse in that position. So it seems I have to reassess my behaviour and close off a bit towards outsiders protect myself. And that sucks.

And one last thing: in this country, I'm missing the real active move from the Muslim community to root out the extremist elements in their midst. And that too is frightening, because to me it's coming close to passive approvement of what's going on.

[bart_smastard]

Re: Holland is waking up?

it's not illegal to have a blueprint to a building

no one should be jailed or arrested for that

hos . an accumilation of circumstantial evidence such as that does warrant them bing arrested.

and Yao it was the burka not hajib .. i got confused . france has banned the hajib from all schools and u guys are making the burka illegal to wear in public .. the burka is the full ninja type heardress , the hajib is the head scarf they sometimes use as a veil