god vs. god MMV

[shosh]

Re: miketpoto

I believe Joseph Smith

[Yao]

Re: miketpoto

wtf does smith say then?

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

Mike I was not ignoring the Smith thing

I was feeding my children and had to attend services tonight.

I am looking into Smith as I do not know a great deal about him. There is so much information out there about so many people who say this or that. I am only one man and can only decipher information when I take time to look into it. I am not the type of person to scratch the surface of something and be say I understand it. There is a wealth of information on any given subject. Those who we refer to as wise usually are the ones who dig deep into things.


I am interested in knowing more about him so I guess it is good this came up as I just have not made myself look into him yet.

[picklemonkey]

Re: miketpoto

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

[miketpoto]

Re: miketpoto

To clarify for everyone, Joseph smith is the "prophet" or "inventor" of the mormon church of jesus christ of latter day saints. he claimed to be a "modern day" prophet who brought more of christ's words to the people in the book of mormon. There is a brilliant south park episode that explains the story wonderfully, but here's the gist of it from the PBS website biography.

Joseph Smith
1805-1844

Born on December 23, 1805, in Sharon, Vermont, to Joseph and Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph Smith Jr. grew up on a series of tenant farms in Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York. Though in his youth Joseph was largely deprived of a formal education, he was "instructed in reading, writing, and the ground rules of arithmetic."1 Joseph's mother said that he was often "given to meditation and deep study."2
Affected by the great religious excitement taking place around his home in Manchester, New York, in 1820, fourteen-year-old Joseph was determined to know which of the many religions he should join. He encountered a passage in the Bible instructing any who lacked wisdom to "ask of God" (James 1:5). Early one morning in the spring of 1820, Joseph went to a secluded woods to ask God which church he should join. According to his account, while praying Joseph was visited by two "personages" who identified themselves as God the Father and Jesus Christ. He was told not to join any of the churches.

In 1823, Joseph Smith said he was visited by an angel named Moroni, who told him of an ancient record containing God's dealings with the former inhabitants of the American continent. In 1827, Joseph retrieved this record, inscribed on thin golden plates, and shortly afterward began translating its words by the "gift of God."3 The resulting manuscript, the Book of Mormon, was published in March 1830. On April 6, 1830, Joseph Smith organized The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and became its first president.

Joseph married Emma Hale on January 18, 1827, and was described as a loving and devoted husband. They had eleven children (two adopted), only five of whom lived past infancy. During the thirty-nine years of his life, Joseph established thriving cities in Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois; produced volumes of scripture; sent missionaries throughout the world; orchestrated the building of temples; served as mayor of Nauvoo, one of the largest cities in Illinois, and as general of its militia, the Nauvoo Legion; and was a candidate for the presidency of the United States. He was a controversial figure in American history—beloved of his followers and hated by his detractors. Joseph was persecuted much of his adult life and was killed along with his brother Hyrum by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, on June 27, 1844.

[miketpoto]

Re: miketpoto

and this site elaborates from a very good perspective....

[miketpoto]

Re: miketpoto

are you a mormon shosh?

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

I think I have read enough already to explain this.
I have gone to www.pbs.org to read about him. I will paste this from the site.

Affected by the great religious excitement taking place around his home in Manchester, New York, in 1820, fourteen-year-old Joseph was determined to know which of the many religions he should join. He encountered a passage in the Bible instructing any who lacked wisdom to "ask of God" (James 1:5). Early one morning in the spring of 1820, Joseph went to a secluded woods to ask God which church he should join. According to his account, while praying Joseph was visited by two "personages" who identified themselves as God the Father and Jesus Christ. He was told not to join any of the churches. In 1823, Joseph Smith said he was visited by an angel named Moroni, who told him of an ancient record containing God's dealings with the former inhabitants of the American continent. In 1827, Joseph retrieved this record, inscribed on thin golden plates, and shortly afterward began translating its words by the "gift of God."3 The resulting manuscript, the Book of Mormon, was published in March 1830. On April 6, 1830, Joseph Smith organized The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and became its first president.

Here is my first thought

"Early one morning in the spring of 1820, Joseph went to a secluded woods to ask God which church he should join."

This seems odd to me. secluded woods, no one there to see if in fact that God and Jesus did come to him. Not credible to anyone who has sense. If there is no one to see this then I can not lend credit to it. All of the accounts of Jesus in the Bible were seen by many people. If I told you that tonight I was visited by God and Jesus in my car on the way to the store to buy some milk, the first thing you would say to me is prove it. No proof no credit.

Here is what the bible says about divine revelation.

The work of the Holy Spirit is three fold - revelation then inspiration then confirmation
Revelation means revealing. So if something is revealed where does if come from. That is the inspiration. So if there is a revealing by inspiratin where is the proof. That is in the conformation. You have to have all three to have credit. Joseph Smith claims revelation with inspiration but there is no proof. No one was there with him, where are the gold tablets he was given. No one has seen them ever.

So now we go to the Bible to see about its revelation, inspiration and conformation.
1 Corinthians 2 pretty much the entire chapter is relevant to this as a building into the answer. Here are the main points:
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Co 2:10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1Co 2:11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
1Co 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ


John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

go to verse 26 to get an explanation of what the comforter is

John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

the meaning of this verse is pretty clear. It says God will send the Holy Spirit to remind the apostles who are penning the Bible of all that Jesus taught them.

This is Jesus talking to his apostles

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

so in summary the revelation came from God and was given to the apostles by the Holy Spirit as stated in verse 10 where it says "but unto us it was revealed" there you have the revelation, the first step. So here Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will reveal things to come to the apostles some 1860 +/- years before Joseph Smith was a gleam in his parents eye. I am sure that Joseph Smith was not alive when Jesus walked the earth and over 1800 years old when he wrote the book of Mormon.

Now lets look for inspiration for Mr. Smith.

2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

Do not misunderstand the word interpretation as it is used in verse 20.
the greek word used here is epilusis and this is the only time it appears like this in the whole Bible. It means explanation. So basically it means no man wrote the Bible trying to explain the revelation as stated in verse 21 men spoke being moved by the Holy Spirit

I have used this one alrerady but it goes with what I am saying here so I use it again.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

1Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1Corinthians 2:12 But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So we have the revelation from God as discussed earlier. Now we have the inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So far we see that only the apostles were included in this gift. Nowhere will you read that later in history will anthing be revealed to anyone, Joseph Smith included.

Now I go to confirmation.

Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with different kinds of miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will

Mark 16:17 And miraculous signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;
Mark 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.
Mark 16:19 Then indeed, after speaking to them, the Lord was taken up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mark 16:20 And going out, they proclaimed everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the Word by miraculous signs following. Amen.

Here are two examples of confirmation which you will not see any such things with Joseph Smith. If one claims divine revelation through holy inspiration, you better start looking for confirmation through miracles.There are no records of any confirmation of anything Joseph Smith said. It is all his word based on something he said he saw in a secluded wood and from a gold plate that no one but him has ever seen.

Think about this. If you received divine revelation from God and in your hand was gold plates as proof, would you hide them or would you show them to at least your loved ones. I can find no credibility to Mr. Smith.

As my last point Jesus ascended into Heaven

Luke 24:51 And it happened as He blessed them, He withdrew from them and was carried up into Heaven.

I can not remember at this time the exact verse but there are a few that tell us Jesus is not caoming back to earth until he comes on the judegement day.

So if the Bible is a revelation of God and is inspired by God through the Holy Spirit and is confirmed by the miracles then I say Joseph Smith and any one else who says they recieved divine inspiration are not so according to what the Bible says about divine inspiration.

[shosh]

Re: miketpoto

yes i am mormon.

i will come back and see what cdj wrote in a few mins.

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

Just a few things from mikes link

Test of a prophet: "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously..." Deut 18:21-22

Can even a "true" prophet have false revelations? Even Joseph Smith had to admit that some of his "revelations" might be of man or even of the devil. Comp Hist 1:165. This is contradictory in concept to the Deuteronomy 18:22 test, which says that the failure of the test indicates that the prophet is false. Joseph Smith here implies that the prophecy may be false, but the prophet himself is apparently still a prophet. One might ask then, what good is a prophet?

Hyrum Smith, who was also a "prophet," on Nov 1, 1831, commented about prophecy and said that "if you hit once in 10 times, that is alright." [quoted by Abraham O. Smoot in 1868 at the Provo School of the Prophets] This also is a contradiction of Deut 18:22.


SALE OF BOOK OF MORMON COPYRIGHT: Winter 1829-1830. Comp Hist 1:165 Joseph had a revelation that Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to go to Toronto to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon to raise money.

FULFILLMENT: They went, according to the revelation, but were completely unsuccessful. Joseph Smith "inquired of God" and was told that some "revelations" are not from God. David Whitmer reports this incident in his book An Address To All Believers In Christ, Richmond, 1887, photo reprinting by Utah Lighthouse Ministry, pp 30-31

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

shosh correct me if I am wrong but doesnt the book of mormon teach that Jesus will come back for a 1000 year reign on earth?

[miketpoto]

Re: miketpoto

Hey shosh, are you in utah? My ex, a good friend is from ogden, i've been b4 to visit, beautiful place.

Cowardly, Joseph Smith didnt claim to be 1800 years old, or that he saw Jesus in the flesh. He had a vision, allegedly, and the book of mormon speaks about Jesus having lived for a time in his life on earth in what is now modern day upstate new york. There is a lot more to it than that, but thats part of the basis of the mormon belief system.

As you stated that anyone who has any sense would think that this seems made up.... Who is to say that they didnt make things up 2000 years ago? It seems reasonable that a bunch of men would make things up that would scare women and men not like themselves into behaving and/or obeying them. Of course in the bible the writers will give themselves some special reason and circumstances where they are writing truly moved by the holy spirit.... If they didn't write that then any boob could just say that the speak the word of the lord (many indeed have). Just because the bible is the "original version" and it sets certain rules for itself doesnt mean that in the sequel they can't change the rules to make the storyline work. Let's not forget that Rome was conquered and ancient civilizations had risen and fell, and that man had been philosophizing for centuries if not millenia before the time the bible was written. It might have been 2000 years ago, but people were still sneaky, and greedy, and dishonest for selfish reasons even then.

I agree with you partially about so many different versions of christianity being tailored to fit individuals or groups, and how that seems a bit deluded and contradictory/hypocritical. You don't seem to be the type of christian fundamentalist that I have had screaming at me and others at AIDS charity events or Gay Pride events, and I must say that I value that you have the nature to not agree, but to let well enough alone. When I think about the tangible hatred I have for certain religious groups, its calmed me down and took me back a few steps to compare what you have said that has annoyed me to what they do that infuriates me. In perspective i have to say that while logical reason in my mind lends me to the belief that you are in "LALALAND" for things you hold true, my heart tells me that you arent a bad guy and I'm defintely crazy in many of my own ways, and as long as you arent dangerous crazy, then I can defintely deal with agreeing to disagree. I ask that you keep to yourself where it is or what it is that you believe is my fate or the fate of non-believers, cause it makes you sound like a complete dick, which I think we can both agree you don't want to be the case. Anyway, I need to get to bed, my eyes are not liking the computer screen anymore tonight.... Goodnight

[shosh]

Re: miketpoto

ok... I have a lot of stuff to write about.

first, no one was there with joseph smith? who was there with adam? or moses?

no proof, no credit? what's the purpose of faith then? faith is believing in things which we have not seen, but hold to be true.

some prophecies have been misinterpreted, some have not yet been fulfilled. yet there have been some amazing prophecies fulfilled (i.e. civil war).

there have been witnesses which have seen and testified about the golden plates.

we dont teach that Jesus lived in upstate new york. he revealed himself to joseph smith.

i have a few things to do write now, so i dont have the time to write about all cdj wrote about, but i will write in a few hours.

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

just to clarify things I made that post before I read that you were a mormon so do not think I was trying to insult you or anything like that.

I was simply answering mikes question I read earlier in the thread

[shosh]

Re: miketpoto

It's fine, I don't get offended by that. I'm happy to discuss my religion. One thing to keep in mind. We believe that Joseph Smith was indeed a Prophet of God, that he re-established Christ's true Church on this earth. We believe that he did see God and Jesus Christ appear to them. Therefore, if the "First Vision" is indeed true, everything else is true because he speaks and acts by the power of God. However, if that didnt happen, he is not a prophet, etc - domino effect. Now can you prove or disprove the "First Vision?" No, because it is all based on faith. How do I know it's true? Because I have prayed and asked God and I know by the power of the Holy Ghost, sent to us from the Father to testify of all things.

You cannot account for religious things by logic. But if you want to, there are plenty of historical and archeological things which attest to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I believe in it, and I also believe in God.

Do you believe in God? Have you seen him? Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Were you there with him? Do you believe Him to be the Son of God? Has God told you that personally?

FYI, I was a mormon missionary (in Ogden, Utah - can you believe it Mike?). I have heard these things over and over again. It is much easier for me to discuss them rather than type them. However, I was able to find something online for those really concerned and those who want to dispute the validity of "Mormonism." These are all accurate articles backed by logical, archeological, and biblical evidence, explained and taken withing context.

http://www.fairlds.org and http://farms.byu.edu/other_questions_evidences.php

"All the prophesies of true prophets come true. However, as the Prophet Joseph Smith said:

"a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842–43, p.27

In other words, not every word a prophet says is always considered prophesy. In addition, some prophesies are conditional in nature. For example, in the Holy Bible, the prophet Jonah prophesied that Ninevah would by overthrown within forty days:

"And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:4)

However, the people of Ninevah repented and the Lord withdrew the prophecy:

"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not." (Jonah 3:10)

Was Jonah a false prophet? No, the prophecy was simply a conditional one.

It's rather common for anti-Mormons to try and turn every single statement ever said by any Church leader at any time into an official prophecy that has no conditions. What's especially hypocritical about this technique is that they are using the same techniques that atheists use against them. If you want a good response as to why Fundamentalist Protestant attacks against LDS Church leaders are invalid, I suggest you go to a Fundamentalist Christian bookstore, buy a book written by a Fundamentalist Christian author that refutes the attacks of atheists against the Bible, and simply apply the same principles to LDS Church leaders (e.g., "Jonah wasn't a false prophet because the prophesy was conditional in nature. Likewise Joseph Smith wasn't a false prophet because the prophecy was conditional as well).

Let us now examine three difficult Bible prophecies that would have to be rejected as false if we were to insist on judging them solely on the basis of a strictly literal reading of Deuteronomy 18:21-22.

In 2 Samuel 7: 5-17, we read that the prophet Nathan unequivocally prophesied to David that through his son Solomon the Davidic empire would be established "forever;' that the children of Israel would dwell in the promised land "and move no more," and that the "children of wickedness" would no longer afflict them. These things are quite clearly stated. No conditions are attached to these promises, none whatsoever.

That Nathan was predicting the permanent establishment of the temporal kingdom of David has even been acknowledged (albeit somewhat obliquely) by R. K. Harrison, a fine conservative Bible scholar:

The Davidic dynasty was confidently expected to usher in a new era of Israelite life of an enduring quality (2 Sam. 7:5if), because it was firmly rooted in loyalty to the God of the Covenant. (1969:410, emphasis added.)

Robert Jamieson, Andrew Faucet, and David Brown concede that the promise of "the throne of his kingdom" being established "forever" (vs. 13) refers "in its primary application, to Solomon, and to the temporal kingdom of David's family" (587). The promise is reiterated in verse 16: "thine [David's] house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever." In short, as Robert H. Pfeiffer has stated,".. . the point of II Samuel 7 is the eternity of this [the Davidic] dynasty" (370). It was because of the supposed permanence of the Davidic empire that the children of Israel would be able to remain in the promised land "and move no more" (vs. 10).

And, as for the assurance that the Israelites would no longer be afflicted by "the children of wickedness" (vs. 10), the New International Version phrases it this way: "Wicked people will not oppress them any more."

But, of course, what actually happened to the Davidic empire and to the children of Israel? The Davidic dynasty was later smashed. The Israelites were driven and scattered from the promised land. And "wicked people" certainly continued to afflict and oppress them.

The second difficult Bible prophecy we will consider is one which is attributed to the Savior Himself. It is found in Matthew 10:23, wherein Jesus is represented as very matter-of-factly stating that His second coming would occur before the disciples returned from the mission on which He was then sending them. This, of course, did not happen. The verse roads as follows in the RSV:

When they persecute you [the disciples] in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say unto you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes.

Howard Clark Kee has said the following about this verse:

One of the most problematic sayings in the whole Synoptic tradition [i.e., Matthew, Mark, and Luke] is this explicit statement that the disciples will not have completed their mission tour before the Son of man comes, i.e., before the age ends and the kingdom of God arrives in its fullness. (In Laymon 622)

Says T. F. Glasson, "Thus, before the disciples return Jesus expects to be caught up to heaven and to come down in glory" (57).

This verse is so problematic that many scholars have questioned its authenticity. Glasson notes that them is "widespread doubt concerning the genuineness of Matthew 10:23.. . ." (59).

The third difficult Bible prophecy we will consider is Judges 13:5, where it is recounted that an angel promised Samson's mother that Samson would "begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines." No matter how liberal or expansive one wants to be with the facts of Israelite history (as recorded in the Bible or elsewhere), there is no way it can reasonably be concluded that Samson fulfilled this prophecy.

Not only did Samson fail to even "begin" to free Israel from the Philistines, but (1) there were times when he consorted with Philistine women, (2) he married a Philistine, (3) he himself never even led any Israelite troops against the Philistines, and (4) the Philistines eventually humiliated him.

Moreover, and most importantly, Israel actually lost ground to the Philistines during Samson's tenure. Judges 13-16 illustrates Philistine encroachment into Hebrew territory. The Samson narrative documents the eastward expansion of the Philistines by mentioning the Philistine presence in Timnah and Lehi, both in the strategic valley of Sorek (Achtemeier 1985:787-791). This Philistine expansion worsened the land shortage that eventually forced the Danites to migrate northward.

Of course, the non-fulfillment of Judges 13: 5 can be attributed to Samson's failure to live according to his Nazarite calling. In addition to his sexual liaisons, he married a Philistine, ate unclean food, drank wine, and allowed his hair to be cut. Therefore, it could be said that the angel's prophecy was nullified by Samson's behavior. However, the angel placed absolutely no conditions on his promise that Samson would begin to deliver Israel from the Philistines. He simply declared that Samson would do so."