god vs. god MMV

[Yao]

Re: miketpoto

i should have a book of Mormon laying around here somewhere, some girl that made house visits to convert people gave it to me. I guess I dissapointed them beyond belief....I have a lot of religious people on my faculty as well (still going there to be able to convert people and make bible-translations in Africa), and they have tried time and time again to convince me I was doing the wrong thing.

Never succeeded though., and of those only one has truly proven that she can accept me as I am, while I on the other hand did not have a problem with them at all I gotta say. Still, she says she will pray for me, but from her it is more meant as an expression of affection, I like that. I am very aware of the fact that estblishing a deep friendship might also be a way to 'show somebody the way', but I think she has gotten to the point where she will leave me as I am and just hope I will 'regain my senses'. She will never ever question my worldviews though, but we do have very cool discussions on life and belief in general. In fact, we agreed to do some agrumentation in a small booklet, passing it on between the two of us to answer on that what the other has written.

Those are the discussions i enjoy the most: based on equality and respect. She hardly quotes from the bible either I gotta say.

@ Cowardly: maybe that is the problem with religious people arguing with me by throwing quotes and rules out of a book to me. I do not wish to hear stuff that is written down, for then I'm not really discussing issues with a person, but rather trying to have a discourse with a book, which is a contradiction in itself, since a book cannot interpret my thoughts and opinions and give an adapted reaction to that. It's fixed.

I would very much like to continue discussions though if you or any other religious fanatic (yes, not insultingly meant, but you are) could actually enter into a discussion without quoting, but simply trying to tell me about their views on things. That way either I or my discussion partner can have a REAL discussion, instead of me getting a brick wall thrown at me....Remove the book from in between us and show me who you really are. You're not a book you know, you're the choices you make, the way you interpret, you are your virtues and your sins alltogether.

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

shosh I was thinking and I have a few questions that will help me grasp the Mormon concept.

1. Do the Mormons believe that Jesus was the Son of God or just a prophet?
2. Do the Mormons believe the Bible is divine inspiration of the apostles as led by the Holy Spirit?
3. Do the Mormons believe that Jesus came to establish a literal kingdon as in King David had where Jesus would sit on a throne on earth and reign?


I have to eat and feed my son and I am going to read about some of the things you posted and I will see what I can come up with

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

Yao what would you like to know about me as a person (if I understand your post correctly) that I can not divulge by hiding behind a book?

Ask and ye shall receive

[miketpoto]

Re: miketpoto

Keep the discussion going people, I am all for that, but lets remember, it's really all about me...

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

Keep the discussion going people, I am all for that, but lets remember, it's really all about me...

indeed it is

[Yao]

Re: miketpoto

lol @ Mike

Nothing specific Cowardly, I'm just asking that you use you own reason and logic to convince me rather than throwing verses at me: it's abstract, doesn't represent what you think (cos you didn't reason that for yourself), and I just want to hear your logic, your opinion as a person. Not that from the book.

If you cannot answer a question without referring to the book that is no shame dude, don't be afraid of being a little human...

[asdf_admin]

Re: miketpoto

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

lol @ Mike

Nothing specific Cowardly, I'm just asking that you use you own reason and logic to convince me rather than throwing verses at me: it's abstract, doesn't represent what you think (cos you didn't reason that for yourself), and I just want to hear your logic, your opinion as a person. Not that from the book.

If you cannot answer a question without referring to the book that is no shame dude, don't be afraid of being a little human...

what me human

whoever told you that is a LIAR.

ask any question you want of me

[Yao]

Re: miketpoto

do you fart sometimes?

(If that is a negative you are deffo Biblebot-2000 and then I'm getting scared shit )

[miketpoto]

Re: miketpoto

I farted once on the set of the Blue Lagoon.

[shosh]

Re: miketpoto

@ CDJ

1. We do believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God.

2. The Bible is the word of God written by his prophets.

3. I'm not sure i understood this question

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

shosh I have been reading much about the Mormons and I came across a statement that strikes a chord with me. It is this:

"The book of Mormon is considered by the saints as being equal with and "supporting but not supplanting" the Bible.

The deffinition of supplanting is - act of taking the place of another especially using underhanded tactics.

So if the Mormons say that the Bible is, at a minimum, equal in authority to the Bible and not to supplant it, then having that as a basis I ask then how can someone believe that Joseph Smith had a vision when the Bible clearly states that only the 12 apostles (Acts 2) were given the "power" of the Holy Spirit to guide them to to ALL TRUTHS John 16:13.

So if the Book of Mormon is equal to but not to surpass the Bible then is it not true that Mr. Smith by his own admission proves himself to be a false prophet? How can one claim equality to something he denies through his own teachings and beliefs? If the Bible is to be called true then one of three things is wrong about John 16:13; either John is wrong, Jesus was wrong when he told them that they would receive ALL TRUTHS, or Mr. Smith is wrong. There is absolute conflict in this matter and all three can not be right.

Mr. Smith says that there was no proper church when he received his vision. Is that to include the church established by God on the day of Pentecost? Acts 2.

I can offer many scriptures to show that the church and the "kingdom" which Christ spoke of being at hand are the same and that the "kingdom" did come and was established.

First the prophesy of the kingdom


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Isa 2:2 And it shall be, in the last days the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem

Micah 4:1 But it shall be in the last days the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it.
Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come and say, Come and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths; for the Law shall go forth out of Zion, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.

Lets see if this prophesy came true. I will break this down into the different sections of the verses.

Acts 2:5 And dwelling at Jerusalem there were Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 9-11 gives us a list of 16 different nations that were present at this time. So we can see that the first part of Micah 4:2 and Isaiah 2:3 was fulfilled.

The middle part of Micha 4:2 and Isaiah 2:3 says "He will teach us of his ways" Acts 2:14-36 and 40 is Peter teaching those present about God and his ways. So that part of the prophesy has been fulfilled.

The latter part of Micah 4:1 and of Isaiah 2:2 says "and peoples shall flow into it" Here we see this has been fulfilled. I would also like to point out the word chuch in Acts 2:47. God added to the church daily.

Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized. And the same day there were added about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

So it is established that the prophesy of the church has been fulfilled If there was no churche suitable to God when Mr. Smith had his vision then why would God add to the church daily those who were being saved? Again we are faced with clear contrasting statements between God and Mr. Smith. If Mr. Smith says God is credible, then why would God not have added Mr. Smith to the church he added everyone else to? Why would God have told Mr. Smith to start a new church? What happened to the people God added to the church before Mr. Smiths church? Are they lost because God added them to the wrong church?

Here are some more verses that state the kingdom did come and the kingdom is the church:

Colossians 1:13 For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son;

The word translated here does not mean in the sense of translating as it means translating a different language. The greek word used in scripture is methistemi and means to transfer, that is to be carried away, dispose or exchange. Also notice the the verb has delivered is present tense and not future tense.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here.
It is evident that his kingdom spoken of in scripture is not a literal kingdom to be reigned from earth.


1Timothy 3:15 But if I should delay, that you may know how you ought to behave in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 9:1 And He said to them, Truly I say to you that there are some of those who stand here who shall not taste of death until they see the kingdom of God come with power.
So if we are to believe that some of these people would not die before Jesus kingdom comes then there are some 2000 year old people walking the earth today.

Hebrew 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear
Look back up a bit to where I put the scripture Daniel 2:44 and you can see that the writer of Hebrews is speaking in present tense of a kingdom.

There are many more
Matthew 16:18-19, 1 Corinthians 15:24-26, Mark 1:14-15, Luke 1:33 and I could go on and on.

I also read that Mr. Smith was visited by Peter, James and John in 1829 and these men gave Mr. Smith and Oliver Cowdery "the keys to apostleship.

Acts 1:2, John 6:70 says Jesus chose the apostles. The only other time we hear of an apostle being chosen by anyone other than Jesus is after Judas betrayed Jesus. Here the other apostles prayed and asked God to choose

Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, You, Lord, knower of all hearts, show which one You chose from these two.

If the other apostles had the power to give apostleship to Smith and Cowdery then why did't they chose the apostle to replace Judas? Why did they look to God to choose? If they had the power they would have used it.

So if they visited him and he took what they said to him serious in his visitation, then admittedly he has to think that what they say in the Bible surely must be true. If not then how can he lend credibility to what they said to him in person if what they said in the Bible is not true.


shosh of all the poeple who have responded in this thread you are the only one who has brought your faith to the table. I respect that greatly. I also would like to point out that I feel I can say things to you in context of religion that others would not understand or as have been stated take offence to. Being that you were a missionary for a time I think you are absolutely dedicated to going to Heaven. If not then you would not have used your time going on them for a cause you do not believe in. I know many people who have gone on journeys and it is a hard hard life.

I am assuming you agree with the Mormon doctrine that the Bible is true. If that be the case then I point out to you some scripture that tells us to watch out for false prophets.

1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

This one is from Peter who Mr. Smithsays is credible because he visited him
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you

Ephesians 4:14 so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit.


I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Mr. Smith in evidence presented through scripture has a doctrine of men. I hope not to offend you but to provoke you to thought about a man who claims to believe in the same God he discredits with his words.

I know that 99% of the time, even in light of truth most people are not willing to examine themselves or their beliefs. Now before anyone starts to accuse me of not being willing to change mine I say this; If you can prove to me that the Bible and its contents are false then I will renounce my religion and convert happily to that truth.
In light of that I challenge anyone to prove to me that the Bible is false or to bring any contridictions in the Bible forward and I will examine them with an open mind. I have spent the last few years dedicated to learning about the Bible and other denominations. I have yet to come upon any other than The Church of Christ that holds true to the scripture. I know that not all congregations that carry the name The Church of Christ are faithful though. Only the ones who stick to the doctrine of Christ and not a doctrine spoke by men. They are few and far btween because most congregations are adopting the "situatin ethics" or liberalizing themselves to fit the desires of "the many"

I hope it has been a good read for you shosh.

[bart_smastard]

Re: miketpoto

Anyone with me on the idea that CDJ needs to get a job .. He might edit these posts a lil more

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

do you fart sometimes?

(If that is a negative you are deffo Biblebot-2000 and then I'm getting scared shit )

what me fart........ that would be sacreligious. how dare you ask such a question

[cowardly dj]

Re: miketpoto

Anyone with me on the idea that CDJ needs to get a job .. He might edit these posts a lil more

on vacation chief

til next week