Some of my research as I promised

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  • cowardly dj
    ZangerBob
    • Jun 2004
    • 645

    Some of my research as I promised

    Well here it is. I decided to sit down tonight and finish typing this up. I know some of you read the other thread I started but just in case here is the link.

    So I said a few weeks ago that I was going to post some intersting stuff that supports the fact that there was a creator (God) and we and the earth are not just a happen chance. I have dug deep into my studies to bring some interesting things and I know that people here (especially ecrypt and jenks:) ) like to discuss things


    It is the first in what I would like to be a series of topics from my years of research I have commited myself to. It may be a lot of reading but if you have any interest in science and stuff then read it, you may learn something and become that much smarter in doing so. At least it can pass the time while you are at work

    I will examine a few of the variables needed to produce a life-supporting planet and then calculate the mathematical probability of such a functional planet developing by chance alone from the big bang, or basically an accident. First I will calculate the probability for each variable individually. Then I will calculate the possibility of the variables occurring simultaneously.

    Normally, the calculations for probability would be based on many factors with regard to the entire universe. However, these calculations result in extremely large numbers that are not necessary to make the point, to keep the following probabilities smaller and simpler, I will only use a few familiar examples that are based on conservative, common sense values.

    First is the right kind of galaxy

    In a discussion about life in space we need to realize that not all galaxies are the same. Our galaxy is a type b spiral galaxy. That means our galaxy looks like a pinwheel of medium tightness in the winding of its arms. Interestingly, spiral galaxies are rare in space.
    Some eighty out of every one hundred galaxies are classified as elliptical galaxies. Unlike spiral galaxies, elliptical galaxies are made up of older stars and contain very little dust and only limited amounts of other solid materials. There is nothing in an elliptical galaxy from which to produce a planet, let alone to make life to put on that planet.

    Similar problems exist for the other types of galaxies as well. Seyfert galaxies for example, explode every so often, shattering everything in and around them. There is good evidence available showing that well under 1 percent of all galaxies in space have the conditions necessary to sustain life. If we accept a figure of 1 percent, that means that the odds of having the right kind of galaxy by chance is 1 in 100.

    Next, the right position in the galaxy

    The position of our earth in the galaxy is essential to our survival. Throughout most of our galaxy, the gravitational and magnetic forces are so intense that a solar system like ours could not remain intact. Only in 2 doughnut shaped areas located outside the central bulge of the galaxy could a solar system like ours safely exist. Taking the calculated volume of our galaxy and dividing it by the volume of the area that a solar system like ours could exist gives us a value of approximately 150. Therefore, the odds of having a solar system located in one of those doughnut shaped areas is 1 in 150.

    The right kind of star

    Another factor we must include in our calculations relates to the kind of star needed to serve as the sun of our solar system. Of the 100 billion stars in any given galaxy, only a very small percent would be identical or nearly identical to our sun with the proper size, radiation, and temperature needed to support the kinds of systems found on the earth. For instance, the Hubble telescope revealed in 1996 that 70% of all stars are red dwarfs, 10% are white dwarfs, and 15% are K dwarfs. That means that 95% of all stars are too small and cold to support a functional solar system.

    Someone might respond that this should not be a factor because a planet could simply be closer to a colder star. However, there is a limit to how close a star can be to a planet without its gravitational force destroying the planet. This limit is called Roche?s Limit. It is the closest distance in which a planet can be situated from its parent star (sun) and not be torn apart by its tidal bulges developed within its crustal skin.

    Dwarf stars would require a planet to be too close to survive because that planet would have to be inside Roche?s Limit to be warm enough to support life as we know it. With the elimination of all 95% of the suspected dwarf stars from our calculation, I am left with about 5 billion (5% of 100 billion) stars in our galaxy that may include a sun like ours.

    A significant number of these remaining stars would also include binary or trinary stars, blue stars, and red giants like Betelguese in the Orion constellation. Binary or trinary groups are multiple stars orbiting on another. They too, would destroy any planetary satellite like our earth, because blue stars emit too much destructive heat and radiation and red giants are much too large, they would not qualify as eligible substitutes for our sun either.

    The star we need would have to be just hot enough to allow for a suitable planet to orbit outside Roche?s Limit and yet be at a distance that would sustain life-supporting temperatures. Therefore, if we generously assume that 100 million of the remaining 5 billion stars were possible replacements for our sun, we would have a galactic probability ration of 1 to 1000.

    The right distance from the sun

    Studies of Venus have shown that our distance from the sin is critical to the existence of life. Venus is a near twin to our earth in many ways, but its closeness to the sun and its slow backward rotation rate have left the planet with a dense cloud cover made out of sulfuric acid, causing ground temperatures to rise up to 900 degrees F.
    Earth distance from the sun also becomes crucial when we consider how important water is for sustaining life. For water to exist in a liquid state, a very specific temperature range must be maintained. The freezing point of water is 32 degrees F and its boiling point is 212 degrees F. This requires that our distance from the sun has to be a distance that will keep the average ground temp well above 32 degrees F at night and significantly below 212 degrees F during the day.

    If we were any closer to the sun than we are, all our water would be in the vapor state. Of we were any farther away from the sun that we are our water would exist only as solid ice. Since there are 10 planets in our solar system (counting the asteroid belt as a planet for math purposes), only one of these ten is at the right distance for water to continuously exist as a liquid. Based on this, we could conservatively say that the odds of having a planet the right distance from the sun are 1 in 10.

    The right planetary tilt

    Another essential design feature is the tilt of inclination of the earth?s axis. This tilt, along with the distribution of landmasses and the chemical properties of water, is also critical to maintaining a reliable range of temperature on the earth?s surface.
    Our summer in the Northern Hemisphere occurs when we are farther away from the sun. During summer in the Southern Hemisphere the earth is closer to the sun than it was during our Northern Hemisphere summer. It is evident that there would be a great deal more heat accumulated in the Southern Hemisphere during its summer that there would be in the Northern Hemisphere. This is, in fact, what would happen if there were not two significant design features incorporated within the earth?s physical makeup to prevent it ? the distribution of landmasses and the heat retention properties of land and water.

    The Right Land-and-Water Distribution

    A casual look at any world map shows that most of the landmass of planet earth is in the Northern Hemisphere. This naturally leaves most of the Southern Hemisphere covered by water. Water has a large heat capacity, and land does not. This means that water both absorbs and releases a of heat slowly. Landmasses, on the other hand, do just the opposite.

    Therefore, when the Southern Hemisphere is close to the sun, most of the sun's heat is dissipated when it reflects off the water. Some of the heat that the water does absorb is circulated to the colder Northern Hemisphere by ocean currents. If water were not concentrated in the Southern Hemisphere, this heat dissipation and transfer system would not work.

    These two properties, working together with the earth's tilted axis, help to moderate global temperatures. The northern landmass area absorbs maximum solar energy when the earth is farthest from the sun, while the southern waters both store and reflect heat when the earth is closest.

    It is because of earth's tilt and the complimentary heat retaining properties of land and water that we experience the four season and other climatic variations essential to life. Since these combined features are unique to planet earth, the odds of them occurring in our solar system are again 1 in 10

    More Right Conditions For Earth

    Mars has demonstrated for us what a thin atmosphere does to help shape a plant's surface. Without a large solitary moon, a planet cannot maintain the tilt of its axis critical to the mixing of atmospheric gases. That is another factor that has apparently rendered Mars inhospitable for life. Our studies of the atmospheres of other planets have proven how carefully designed our earth is, with some twenty-six different atmospheric layers, each serving a separate function essential to preserving life.
    In addition, charged particles raining down from space, from the sun, and from the other stars are repelled by the earth's magnetic field. This may be our most important shielding device next to the atmosphere itself. Again, using our solar system as a basis, the odds of these three features happening by chance are 1 in 10, respectively.
    We also have discovered that our super massive planets of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune passively serve a vital purpose as they use their huge gravitational fields to draw comets away from possible collision with earth. A good look at the moon says it grabs some too. We give this a very conservative probability of 1 in 40 since there really is no way to tell how many comets have been diverted.

    No life-bearing planet or system could exist near a black hole. As has already been mentioned, because of a black hole's tremendous gravitational field, not even light can escape from a black hole. Our only evidence of its existence is we see matter being swallowed up by it. If a black hole came near a star like our sun, it would instantly destroy both the sun and our earth, along with all the other planets in our solar system. Again we give this a conservative number of 1 in 250.

    Probabilities For Chance Producing A Life-Supporting Planet

    At this point you might be thinking that these odds are well within the realm of possibility, so what have I proven This is true. All of these events could have happened individually. In the case of a life-supporting planet, however, they all must be happening at the same time and place, which changes things in a considerable way.
    In order to appreciate how small the probabilities become when so many events must take place simultaneously, we need to review the basic rules of probability. If I have a deck of cards that is thoroughly shuffled (to add that extra bit of chance), and I ask you to draw the ace of spades blindly from the deck, the probability is 1 out of 52 or 1/52. Now suppose I asked you to draw the ace of spades twice in a row, shuffling the deck each time.

    In other words, you draw the ace, I shuffle it back into the deck, and you draw it again, twice in a row. What are the odds now? They now become 1/52 x 1/52 or 1/2,704. When these two have to occur in a row, you multiply the individual probabilities together. The odds of drawing the same ace four times in a row would be 1/52 x 1/52 x 1/52 x 1/52 which equals, 1/7,311,616. Now that is just four times in a row.
    So now look again at the probabilities listed here and then figure out the mathematical probability of them all occurring at the same time and place.


    Right kind of galaxy............................................ ..1 in 100
    Being in the right place in the galaxy.......................1 in 150
    Having the right kind of star as a sun......................1 in 1000
    Being the right distance from the star (sun).............1 in 10
    Having the proper planetary mass..........................1 in 10
    Having the proper planetary spin............................1 in 10
    Having the proper planetary tilt...............................1 in 10
    Having comet sweeping planets..............................1 in 40
    Not being near a black hole....................................1 in 250
    Having a large solitary moon...................................1 in 10
    Possessing a magnetic field capable of shielding........1 in 10
    Now do the math and we come up with..................1 in 150,000,000,000,000,000

    A number that any logical thinking human can clearly see is beyond any chance of accident.

    This figure only includes conditions needed to SUPPORT life on earth. It does not include all the other precise chemical balances needed in the composition of the atom and the elements making up matter. And it does not include the factors needed for life itself, as demonstrated in its complex chemical codes of DNA and RNA.

    Now lets put this a little more in perspective.
    With this small example of 11 necessary characteristics used here, we find the odds for a chance occurrence are far greater than anything we humans would care to bet our lives on. For example, parachute clubs have often stated that the odds of surviving a fall without a parachute from 10,000 feet are one in ten million.
    If offered a billion tax-free dollars to jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute, with the proviso that you had to live to collect the money, would you accept the offer? Not if you were sane. The odds of surviving are much too small for any rational person to accept. Yet the odds of there being an accidental planet hospitable for life using only the few parameters here considered are 15 billion times less likely than surviving a free--fall from 10,000 feet.
    With odds like this, you have to wonder why anyone would choose chance over design. It seems that the evidence clearly testifies to the intervention of a personal, intelligent planner and designer, whom the Bible calls the God of Heaven and earth.
    In future posts I will consider even more conditions needed for life. When all of these essentials are analyzed, the odds of the existence of God become so great that they far exceed not only the total number of possible stars, but even the atoms that make up the cosmos.
    Last edited by cowardly dj; November 2, 2005, 04:21:56 PM.
    Greatly rejoicing in following God as a freedom not a choice.
  • day_for_night
    Are you Kidding me??
    • Jun 2004
    • 4127

    #2
    Re: Some of my research as I promised

    thats assuming life is only carbon based...

    Comment

    • picklemonkey
      Double hoodie beer monster
      • Jun 2004
      • 15373

      #3
      Re: Some of my research as I promised

      i still have no proof of design... just an assumption that it's greater than one in 150,000,000,000,000,000. show me proof

      Comment

      • Kobe
        I wish I had an interesting User title
        • Jun 2004
        • 2589

        #4
        Re: Some of my research as I promised

        even if the likelyhood is greater than the figure you suggest, isn't the universe vast enough to allow for that probability to occur many times over?
        Beats are my crack.

        Comment

        • bart_smastard
          Gold Gabber
          • May 2005
          • 980

          #5
          Re: Some of my research as I promised

          CDJ life exists on earth outside our own tollerences of what we perceive as habitable or life sustaining . It only takes a flicker of life to begin the process of adaptation it has been proved for species in the artic or species in the very depths of our oceans surviving off volcanic vents . Don't forget also their are species in the desert subjected to twice the temperature we consider normal and then at night they have to survive at temperatures 50c below what it is at high sun . they have adapted overcome . the chances of u rolling 100 consecutive 6's on a dice are 6 to the power of 100, not got a scientific calculator with me but it is a hugly improbable number, but if u roll that dice every minute of every day for a milenia it will eventualy happen , this is what makes life happen TIME ,odds are always evened out over time . Einstien someone who some ppl believe is the greatest mind to ever walk this planet said of quantom physics "god dosn't play dice" . howeva as casino's have figured out if u use time to ure advantage then odd's even out . the odds u equated assume all planets suns and galaxies were created at the same time ( hence you pointing at old stars in other galaxies) but almost all stars have a goldilocks moment when they could possibly support life . and by moment i mean a billion years . all science can be twisted and there are a few that support your theories on a mystical hand shaping our lives . But there are 1000 times more supporting my view . i play the odds just like god and i'm going for the dead cert

          Comment

          • bart_smastard
            Gold Gabber
            • May 2005
            • 980

            #6
            Re: Some of my research as I promised

            Also You go on about atoms . this is the only area i actualy believe there to be a god ( my personal belief ) mass had to originate from somewhere . space is there to be created . where did this mass come from? . this is the only thing that leads me to believe in something mystical . but my personal feelings are that the mass we are created from could be god . fuck knows, it is a question you cannot answer . mass precedes time . time precedes man . the main stasis of my argument about religion is the vastness of the cosmos ( you yourself have stated this in your post cdj ) but according to most religeuos teachings we are so very important to god . so why are we stuck on a irrelevant speck of dust floating in a not too spectatular galaxy with a midget of a sun in a poxy lil solar system no where near the center of the universe . and also why are stars still being in born in nebulars if god put his feet up 30,000 years ago after spending 5 sevenths of his working life creating us . Ure book is dreadfully wrong or the facts are

            Comment

            • cowardly dj
              ZangerBob
              • Jun 2004
              • 645

              #7
              Re: Some of my research as I promised

              Ever done any extinsive research on the big bang. Most people only know a super small fraction of the theory of the big bang.

              Where did the matter come from?

              Theorist suggest that matter just caused itself to exist. Spontaneous existence. You can not even imagine what absolute nothing would be like because we are finite beings and absolute nothing is infinite.

              Has time always existed? What was the measure of time before man started using his measurements.

              This is something the theorists use to measure. It is called Planck time.

              The Planck time is the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to cross a distance equal to the Planck length. This is the ?quantum of time?, the smallest measurement of time that has any meaning, and is equal to 10-43 seconds. No smaller division of time has any meaning. With in the framework of the laws of physics as we understand them today, we can say only that the universe came into existence when it already had an age of 10-43 seconds.

              Can you explain what negative time is?

              Ok, so here we have man trying to put a measurement on something he can not grasp as it is out of his finite understanding. Notice what I put into bold type.

              If time is infinite in its makeup then how can man say that 10 to the negative 43rd power is the smallest measurement of time?

              Ever wonder why it is called the theory of the big bang?

              theory A noun 1 hypothosis, possibility, theory
              a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory


              You can not make up negative time in a scientific test.

              It is a theory because it can not be proven. If you believe science to be your true guide then you are also basing it in faith as one who believes God created all does.

              I guess it is going to come down to this:

              Put all that you think you know about science and God aside and ask yourself one question, the most basic fundamental question that partains to creation -

              Is it truly possible for something to create itself out af absolute nothingness?
              Greatly rejoicing in following God as a freedom not a choice.

              Comment

              • picklemonkey
                Double hoodie beer monster
                • Jun 2004
                • 15373

                #8
                Re: Some of my research as I promised

                the bible isn't fact either, buddy. it's a story.

                Comment

                • bart_smastard
                  Gold Gabber
                  • May 2005
                  • 980

                  #9
                  Re: Some of my research as I promised

                  Cowardly do you only read ure own posts ? read the one above ure own for fucks sake . and as for my research on this subject to even compare u have to read alot and i mean alot of books on this subject . it is one of my hobbies . brian greene- the elegant universe would be a good starting point for you but if that's too advanced go for a dumbed down stephen hawkins book . this is something i study with almost as much passion as u put into your bible . know ure stuff before you take me on on this stuff boyo . i don't need to quote from books or drag scrypts of web pages . this is the main basis for my anti religous beliefs and i know my shit

                  Comment

                  • bart_smastard
                    Gold Gabber
                    • May 2005
                    • 980

                    #10
                    Re: Some of my research as I promised

                    by the way i don't know if u noticed but i also have the ability to put in 2 lines what it takes u to put into 30 . another thing u should look into

                    Comment

                    • influx
                      Gold Gabber
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 543

                      #11
                      Re: Some of my research as I promised

                      Originally posted by Kobe
                      even if the likelyhood is greater than the figure you suggest, isn't the universe vast enough to allow for that probability to occur many times over?
                      yeah that's what i'm thinkin'.. i've heard that scientists estimate the total number of stars in the universe to be somewhere around 10 billion trillion. which is a lot more than 150,000,000,000,000,000.
                      i reject your reality, and substitute my own.
                      www.flynoteproductions.com

                      Comment

                      • toasty
                        Sir Toastiness
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 6585

                        #12
                        Re: Some of my research as I promised

                        ^^ exactly. Also CDJ, I don't think you're giving life the credit it deserves. As I think someone else mentioned, lifeforms thrive in a host of different environments here on earth alone. There are creatures that live in active volcanoes, FFS. Life doesn't emerge only when the conditions are just-ever-so-perfect. It's the other way around. Life tries to work around the roughest conditions to continue.

                        I have a feeling that if were to really get in there and poke around, we'd probably find other life here in this solar system alone, either on another planet or a moon of a planet. I'm not talking about intelligent life, mind you, but bacteria, fungus, plants, single-celled organisms or possibly something we can't even conceive. Wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm not a kook, I just think it's arrogant to think we're the only lifeforms out there. Maybe our own SS is too close, but there's other life out there somewhere. Lots of it.

                        None of this disproves the existence of God, of course -- but nothing that you're saying proves the existence of God, either...

                        Comment

                        • cowardly dj
                          ZangerBob
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 645

                          #13
                          Re: Some of my research as I promised

                          Originally posted by bart_smastard
                          Cowardly do you only read ure own posts ? read the one above ure own for fucks sake . and as for my research on this subject to even compare u have to read alot and i mean alot of books on this subject . it is one of my hobbies . brian greene- the elegant universe would be a good starting point for you but if that's too advanced go for a dumbed down stephen hawkins book . this is something i study with almost as much passion as u put into your bible . know ure stuff before you take me on on this stuff boyo . i don't need to quote from books or drag scrypts of web pages . this is the main basis for my anti religous beliefs and i know my shit

                          I was typing that post when you were typing yours so I did not get to read your post as it was not up there when I pushed reply

                          so no need to insult berfore you know the scoop

                          as far as reading and research

                          1. You have no idea what, or how much I have read

                          2. I am not taking you on I am putting things up there for people (yes other people than just you) to read and thnink on.
                          Greatly rejoicing in following God as a freedom not a choice.

                          Comment

                          • cowardly dj
                            ZangerBob
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 645

                            #14
                            Re: Some of my research as I promised

                            Originally posted by influx
                            yeah that's what i'm thinkin'.. i've heard that scientists estimate the total number of stars in the universe to be somewhere around 10 billion trillion. which is a lot more than 150,000,000,000,000,000.
                            never take an estimate for a fact, always remember that it is an estimate
                            Greatly rejoicing in following God as a freedom not a choice.

                            Comment

                            • Kobe
                              I wish I had an interesting User title
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 2589

                              #15
                              Re: Some of my research as I promised

                              About the big bang theory, black holes, which are mathematically prove to exist, eventually collapse down to a singularity, which is precisely what is believed to be the origin of the big bang. If huge amounts of matter can condense down to a single point, why would it be so hard to fathom the converse?

                              This is a very provocative subject, and the bottom line is nobody knows the answer. That is the part you seem to be overlooking in your convictions as you work backwards from your conclusion.

                              Since you like definitions, "faith" is defined as believing in what cannot be proven. Various sciences including biology, quantum physics, and astronomy have shown much of what we cannot conceptualize based on our everyday experience can indeed still be proven, so I'd avoid using the word faith along with science. Remember, the world being round was once a theory as well. Mankind is still relatively in the dark ages as far as our discovery of creation goes, many breakthroughs still await. Personally I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
                              Beats are my crack.

                              Comment

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