France??

[thesightless]

Re: France??

and screw a lot of that IMO.

you come to my house, you adapt to my rules, not the other way around.

1. we all know its a few bad eggs. anyone who thinks its the entire muslim population based in france is a moron.
2. it is a social problem. but one that those ppl in the heart of it must fight first.
3. social intregration, and interaction have nothing to do with gov't. they fight each other a lot, and cross paths, but shouldnt be intermingled IMO, unless gov't policy is actively being violated in an attempt to prevent social integration (alabama colleges).

and as for not getting the chance to work, psssht. where in the world are they buying food, housing materials anything required to live??? no one GAVE runningman the oppurtunity to invent something, he went out, and did it. just as Yao attends university, no one told you to go, no one actively recruited you(barring scholarships), you knew enough to go out and find a place to work, study etc

i cant wait to go to europe so i can get really stoned with Yao in a coffe shop and chit chat it up..

[jdat]

Re: France??

maybe if the governments stop helping and giving breaks to the poor, then they will learn to help themselves. cruel, but catering to people only makes them get lazy and take advantage of the situation. tell them tough shit, this is how we do it here, live by our rules or move back to wherever you came from and make it better there. obviously you want it the way it is there, so GO BACK>

and as for not getting the chance to work, psssht. where in the world are they buying food, housing materials anything required to live??? no one GAVE runningman the oppurtunity to invent something, he went out, and did it. just as Yao attends university, no one told you to go, no one actively recruited you(barring scholarships), you knew enough to go out and find a place to work, study etc

I'm sorry but I can't help but point out the contradiction in these two different posts.

Keep in mind that a lot of the young generation lives at home. Coincidentially this not apply exclusively to the so called ghetto crowds no more then it corresponds to the poorly educated. It affects many many different levels of society here.


Salaries as a whole tend to be a joke in France and a lot of people have no alternatives then to stay living in the family home when they grow up cause they can't make a decent salary.

Lastly, I'm not making the assumption that you might particurlaly believe this, but some people in the US think that those on welfare are a bunch of lazy people etc.
Now picture a nation of welfare seekers and you'll begin to have a small vision of what France is like.
So many people are in situations were they make more money on welfare then if they would be working.

It's a system that is flawed to the root and doesn't give a natural instinct to aspire to a higher calling or to try and evolves one's lifestyle.

[thesightless]

Re: France??

i still dont feel bad. its up to them to get out or develope thier own areas just like the immigrants of america did when the welfare system did not exist and things were actually harder.

[mixu]

Re: France??

I found this article quite succinct...

'If there is no struggle, there is no progress," said the African American abolitionist Frederick Douglass. "Those who profess to favour freedom and yet depreciate agitation are men who want crops without ploughing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters ... Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."

By the end of last week it looked as though the fortnight of struggle between minority French youth and the police might actually have yielded some progress. Condemning the rioters is easy. They shot at the police, killed an innocent man, trashed businesses, rammed a car into a retirement home, and torched countless cars (given that 400 cars are burned on an average New Year's Eve in France, this was not quite as remarkable as some made out).

But shield your ears from the awful roaring waters for a moment and take a look at the ocean. Those who wondered what French youth had to gain by taking to the streets should ask what they had to lose. Unemployed, socially excluded, harassed by the police and condemned to poor housing, they live on estates that are essentially open prisons. Statistically invisible (it is against the law and republican principle to collect data based on race or ethnicity) and politically unrepresented (mainland France does not have a single non-white MP), their aim has been simply to get their plight acknowledged. And they succeeded.

...

And the reality is that none of this would have happened without riots. There was no petition these young people could have signed, no peaceful march they could have held, no letter they could have written to their MPs that would have produced these results.

Amid the charred chassis and broken glass there is a vital point of principle to salvage: in certain conditions rioting is not just justified but may also be necessary, and effective. From the poll tax demonstrations to Soweto, history is littered with such cases; what were the French and American revolutions but riots endowed by Enlightenment principles and then blessed by history?

When all non-violent, democratic means of achieving a just end are unavailable, redundant or exhausted, rioting is justifiable. When state agencies charged with protecting communities fail to do so or actually attack them, it may be necessary in self-defence.

After the 1967 riots in American cities, President Johnson set up the Kerner commission. It concluded: "What white Americans have never fully understood ? but what the Negro can never forget ? is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it." How else was such a damning indictment of racial discrimination in the US ever going to land on the president's desk?

https://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1641907,00.html

[Yao]

Re: France??



Now cut the bullshit about them having to simply 'go to work' please. If it were that easy, there would be no ghettos.

[thesightless]

Re: France??

it is that easy, its the people who are stupid and dont realize what it means to support themselves.

dumb analogy about ppl not realizing what ""the real world takes""

NBA just instituted a dress code. a lot of the more ""ghetto"" and ""gansta"" players cried about it. some said they wouldnt obey it until the penalties came out. they still bitched. Charles Barkely said it succinctly ""if i own a business and interview 2 kids, equally qualified, one a white kid in a suit and the other a black kid in a do-rag , a basketball jersay and baggy pants, who's gonnna get the job""

it is about knowing what it takes and working to it, not the other way around. plenty of GENIUSes and wealthy ppl come from terrible areas. they knew what it took to work hard and bust your ass. i have zero pity for ppl who remain in the ghettos only feeling bad for themselves and looking for someone to help them.

[Yao]

Re: France??

Spend some time there, read some research and then you'll know how hard people try dude. Those people that have actually made it big, coming from the ghetto are not the only ones that actually 'wanted to make something of their lives'. I'm kinda beginning to understand why the US has so many ghetto's: I'm sorry to say this, but simply neglecting causes of it and just telling them to go to work is the most fucked-up attitude towards this problem you can have dude.

That is the problem with many US peepz IMO: their attitude. And it has lead to one of most inequally didvided income scales on the planet. You always think you can make it if you work hard enough for it. Well, sorry to tell you this, but that is a dreamworld you're living in. In the real world, you see, people are being held back by a score of other circumstances than just their work-ethics.
US society is still pretty racistic to begin with, and the non-existent social system doesn't make things much better. That's what you get when crime and drugs make easier and more money than a legal job dude. Who wants to spend their life working in a fucking Burger King? Not me, and certainly not those people in the Ghettos.

Please, do some serious reading about it, because I'm not going to answer any posts of this kind anymore: it cripples the discussion and keeps us from trying to probe into the problematics of what's taking place in France in the first place.

[thesightless]

Re: France??

this is beginning to show the difference in the nations we grew up in. capitalist vs socialist. i, beng from the US, have the, work for it and earn it attitude, while Yao has the help em out attitude. neither is wrong or right, just differences in views. but it shines through a bit huh./

[Yao]

Re: France??

Hold it there...

I may be of a different viewpoint, but the last thing I'm saying that we should cuddle them to death, allright? It's the person him/herself that gets a job and education in the end. What HAS to be done thru state intervention is to fight circumstances in a nation that create inequal chances among people where they are clearly not strong enough to do it themselves: in fact, the behaviour of the state and a few of it's branches are at the root of this problem. Hence it is the state's responsability to adress these issues and thus help create a more 'equal field of play'...that's it.

Somehow you guys seem to equate socialism to stupid samaritanism...I can't believe that. I truly think, for the first time on this board the fundamental differences are showing now, this points out the lack of insight in European politics even better than has been show in our discussions on the US elections last year. Damn I'm astonished, truthfully astonished.

And yes, the state plays a bigger role over here, which has until now led to a much more equal division of jobs/national income per capita (also ethnically divided), and also significantly less ghetto?sation than in the US (not saying they're not here at all, France is the worst case around here).

But i do agree, neither is wrong or right mate. I just feel you and a lot of others could use a little more education on how things work here...maybe this could be a nice starting point for that It might bring us a bit closer to each other too...

[Leha]

Re: France??

these fuckers in france ruining life for the rest, well go back to morocco where you can beat your wife if someone sees her in public, where you cant do shit without your imam's consent, etc

agreed. I have the same view on the problem. it could happen now almost everywhere. These events in France started exactcly after end of ramadan. I'm pretty sure that there were some forces that pushed masses.

[Yao]

Re: France??

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/06/france.riots.fatwa.reut/index.html

read

[Yao]

Re: France??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Paris_suburb_riots

read some more.

[thesightless]

Re: France??

OF COURSE the prominent public people are going to issue fatwahs against the rioting..... they also issued ones against terror attacks, and the insurgency in iraq, and the taleban ... they all worked well right?

[Yao]

Re: France??

lol

just get the message behind it, although i do concur that it is mostly PR work there

[runningman]

Re: France??

^^ have you ever heard of saying one thing and doing another..