France??

[thesightless]

Re: France??

im not going to drink this weekend, even though i have a free pass to spirit i think with open bar..........

[Yao]

Re: France??

lol

FYI

A Fatwa is something that will be obeyed without hesitation by true Muslims, don't forget that. It's a holy duty, so if it were radicals alone rioting, the riots would've stopped a lot sooner. Pretty much proves to me that Muslims my have tried to feed the fire, but the real rioters had nothing to do with that. Anyhow, I'm not gonne react on that bullshit about Muslims anyway. Back the 'lazy people issue', which i strongly oppose. For that, the first link was meant to be read.

[thesightless]

Re: France??

we call them the real muslims, but is al zaquarwi a fictional creation? they are all real msulims, some are sinister, some are wonderful human beings. but they let the sinister ones operate at will rather than rooting out their problems from teh heart

and that shows a similar problem, there is no central authority for them. they dont know who to obey. each sect has its own leader and does exactly what you dsaid accordingly. one imam says kill americans, and others say keep peace......

[toasty]

Re: France??

there is no central authority for them

I'm going to reveal some ignorance here (certainly not the first time) -- does Islam have a "Pope-like" figure? Someone who heads up and speaks for the faith?

[Yao]

Re: France??

Good question, it all depends on the Islamic 'sect' you belong to. This coming from you guys, i cannot image that with these riots some of you insisted in blaming it on the 'Muslims'...

Anyway, for any revivalist/fundamentalist/militant Muslim the Iranian Ayatollah will in most cases serve as a 'pope' or supreme authority. For the others, it usually a bit different, prolly more locally placed.

[thesightless]

Re: France??

i didnt blame it one muslims, HOWEVER, there were calls for a jihad against the french government by those who love to jump onto these thigns and tie in a RETARDED cause to a fight or disagreement. every time a murder where race might play a question happens in the US, either the american nazi party or rev. al or rev. jesse hop on and tie it into race. there are scumbags all over this planet, we should just let them die.

Um
RELATED KINDA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4438908.stm

the only thing that i despise about how they treat others is the whole thing on how non-practioners arent allowed within an area of mecca, how in afghanistan, iran, syria, saudi arabia, it is legal to mutilate ppl who deny the religion.

[robprunzit]

Re: France??

Hold it there...

And yes, the state plays a bigger role over here, which has until now led to a much more equal division of jobs/national income per capita (also ethnically divided), and also significantly less ghettoïsation than in the US (not saying they're not here at all, France is the worst case around here)....

Yao, you do give alot of good insight, but I do believe your views are based on European Socialist dogma, not wrong just different from the Capitalistic ferver that has made America so strong. All said, there are always PROBLEMS!

If in the above context, you write about France having the ''worst case'', and Europe as a whole having the ''state'' or govt playing ''a bigger role which led to more 'equal division of jobs/national income per capita ... '', why are Europeans not looking at the changes in regard to the increase in Islamic peoples moving into Europe over the last decade or two, or three.

Europe has around 12 million Muslims now, and France owns about half of them. Can't we see a marked change in European culture turning or changing as the racial lines become more and more Islamic?

And while Europeans are not marrying and making children/families, North African peoples are moving in and exploding families of growth more than exploding cars. Can't we see that Europe is going to be Islamic in 50 years based on birthrate alone?

I think in a couple decades from now, if you could re-read your words of today, you would look back and have a vastly different view of thoughts on this subject of 'who is' and 'why is' France burning.

Truly only time will tell, and sadly there is no stopping the inevitable for Europe! The problem is the lack of willingness to put a finger on the problem, and stop the immigration. Just as we in America are having an flood of 'south of border illegals', our racial minority lines have changed to reflect those coming in, Europe is flooded with 'south of the border legals', who are allowed to come in and make a home, then demand changes based on their way of life.

Only time will tell!

[Yao]

Re: France??



Well, I may have some different views, but I'm not blind, and neither are other Europeans. You're right about the high immigration rates, and yes, at this rate of birth/immigration among the Muslim community they will equal our numbers within my lifespan.

But at this very moment measures are being taken, and the ones we had are becoming more restrictive. Did you know that within 6 years we went from 60.000 asylum applications to 10.000 now, in my country? That's a pretty large cut. The biggest problem now is still the family reunion based immigration, and they're trying to tackle that right now.

Also, assimilation programmes are being pushed: you see, it's not a big problem if we have many Muslims here. It becomes a problem when they refuse to adapt, so it's pretty simple: people pass an exam and prove in their behaviour that they are willing to abide by the rules the bind our society, or they are sent back. Period. So all these doomsday scenario's are a bit overdone, though Europe should keep a very close eye on this whole issue.

As for the birthrate: the better those families become integrated in our system, the less children they will eventually produce, since the instrumental use for it will be gone (taking are for you when you're too old to work), as well as the cultural in the end. The main body of immigrants may be Muslim, but they are still mostly economic or political refugees, which points us to another problem:

The money is with us, not them. And what we don't give, they will come and get. Pretty basic, but so far proven very true: people will go in the search for money, and we have it, so they come to us. The best chances of any stability are still in the West helping the Low Developed Countries (3rd world countries) to create a minimum subsistence base for their peoples. It would cut down most of the immigration flows, since the need to move in order to provide for a higher living standard is taken away.

No matter how attractive the idea of religious driven riots may seem, the problems occuring right now have little to do with Islamism in the first place, but more with globalising economics and politics. I gotta say that the fundamentalist Muslims are using it to push their agenda in a rather agressive way though, and they should be kept in check. But what was happening in France was not Muslim-initiated, and was not about making cultural demands: it was about getting access to the same institutions and more important: chances inside society to make a decent living.

On a related note: this week they acquitted Samir A. for the second fucking time: the court acknowledged he was planning terrorist attacks, but he had not committed any, and he is considered too 'amateuristic' to be seen as a serious threat. This pisses me off so bad....that motherfucker had his martyrdom message already on video. Lock him up forever, he's an enemy of the people and the state, period. I wish this country would stop being being so überleftist and get some balls, and make laws with which you can convict those people.

But like you said Rob: Time will tell...you make one prediction and the other will occur, as always...

[bart_smastard]

Re: France??

I read a good artical a week or so ago about multicoulture societies .

Won't go into all of it but i will give you the main gist .

Truly mulitcoultural societies work very well like the ones we used to have in europe and the one still thriving in the states . The problem that is arising in europe is that countries are fast becomming a bi-coulture society (muslim / non-muslim ).
If you look through history all bi coulture societies degenerate into civil war and i'm sure Yao could list them for you . The problems facing europe will travel accross the atlantic . The only way i can see the envitable not happening is if goverments remove the political correctness brigade and start re-instating national pride and a sense of national identity . If followers of islam start to embrace the country they live in then they may not see this planet as Mecca vs The Rest of The World .

[Yao]

Re: France??

Spot on. Wish they would cut that political correctness bullshit around here, but the fear of what happened in WWII is just rooted too deep so far...not to mention those ultra leftist fuckers that will make sure we feel guilty. Assholes...there's nothing wrong with multi-culturalism, as long as each one knows his.her boundaries and limits.

[bart_smastard]

Re: France??

^^ Multicoulture works fine and societies find a harmony absorbing a little of each coultures identity . It helps the inhabitants of said country to greater apperciate what their own country has to offer and they also get to appreciate what other coultures have . The trouble starts when a minority becomes too large creating a bi polar community . A few examples in a different context .
Countries
America vs 1980's Russia . it's a large planet but you get 2 major countries and it becomes them against us
You have two major football teams who compete against each over for trophys over a decade and it becomes them against us even though there are 20 other teams in league
Music genres elctro - prog ..
I know this is getting silly but what i am trying to say is that when two major forces emerge the rest get forgotten and it becomes a battle generating resentment which fuels hatred .
Muslims and the Rest of The World are growing apart and the day will come when it resorts to full on war . Things need to change before it does

[runningman]

Re: France??

Spot on. Wish they would cut that political correctness bullshit around here, but the fear of what happened in WWII is just rooted too deep so far...not to mention those ultra leftist fuckers that will make sure we feel guilty. Assholes...there's nothing wrong with multi-culturalism, as long as each one knows his.her boundaries and limits.

Knows there limits?? Not a chance. You can't trust that the world is all of a sudden not gonna strive for power. That is what the world is. As long as people are power hungry there will always be these problems.

[Yao]

Re: France??

Dude....those limits are the law and constitution of a country. And they should be forcibly held to it.

[runningman]

Re: France??

the law.. haha.. which planet do you live on?? the law only applies to the sheep in the world. Law doesn't apply to the guys who make it. The law is a joke.

[Yao]

Re: France??

Hm...seems like we're on a few totally different tracks here mate...

You can't tell someone what to think, but you can keep them from doing things they're not supposed to: a constitution can be used as a weapon to protect the values of a society, simply because it is the expression of how a given society wishes to live. That's what i meant to say.

But maybe you're too fatalistic about Islamic militant extremism te realize such a thing. Be happy in your We vs. the Muslims world...my world is a lot bigger in that case, and it's fucking interesting too