The Devil

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

Or why the bible and all other related books are written from a strict male perspective?

1. God is a man and made man in his image and made man first.

2. God made Eve as a "helper" for Adam.

3. Eve sinned first by falling to the temptation. Her punishment and all the women after her were to follow behind man. Pain in childbirth is a direct punishment for Eve's sin for all women. Since God made the decree that woman was mans helper man naturally has the role of leader.

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

What makes a good honest god-believing Christian any better or worse than a good honest god-believing muslim or good honest god-believing jew or good honest god-believing buddhist or whatever you like?

You have to spend time examining each and looking for flaws. The overall content of the claimed religion. I for one do not want to be caught on the wrong side when it all ends so I spend a HUGE amount of time outside work into looking at the Bible and its claims and all the other religions and their claims. The Bible is the only one that is consisten throughtout, flawless. There are flaws in every single religion outside of the Bible and its God. There have been no proven flaws of the Bible EVER.

I can show you the flaws in any religion. Just ask.

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

And here's another little question I have, is it merely coincidence that in the "bible" that Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the first commandment is not to eat from the tree of knowledge (but you could do whatever else you like)? Seems a little self-protecting to me...

the word knowledge is often misused to mean knowledge equal to God's. That is not the case it refers to the knowledge of good and evil. To sum it up in easy terms it was a load of guilt Adam and Eve felt for doing what God asked them not to do. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fruit. It was the concept of chosing to obey or not to obey. A free choice for them and us as well.

as far as the do whatever else you like.... Adam and Eve were created sinless and designed to live forever. They were never goin to die. so to them do whatever you like did not include any sin until they ate of the tree and their eyes were opened

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

and lastly why oh why, if these religions are all truly based upon love (for fellow men or otherwise), why have they been the cause of more deaths in this world than anything else?

religion has not spawned a single war. man has using his take on religion to do what he wanted in his greed.

there is an absolute truth to God and his word. To know this truth you have to study it in great depth. It has to be your sole existence. If you do not then you can misunderstand something about it.

This has happened time and time again and will always happen.
God's word can not be blamed for man taking it and twisting it to meet his needs. Instead of looking to blame religion for the wrong, why dont we blame the person who misunderstood and misused it.

[BSully828]

Re: The Devil

@bsully828

homosexuality is directly spoken against on more than one occasion.

Please provide specific passages. Again, I am a layman here in reguards to the Biblical definition.

All sins are forgivable but you have to be a member of the Church of Christ,

To repeate what Yao, myself and others have said - you can't prove your point by referring to the Bible. The arguement here is that the Bible is not the definitve word on spirituality. Again I refer you to earlier posts where you have been called upon to prove why the Bible superceeds the Torah, Koran, Upanishads, Vedas, etc... etc...

There are very specific guidelines on how to get into that kingdom. Once you meet them you are in for life and no man can remove your name but your choices can take your name out.

How can a being that is beyond all human comprehension rest Its utmost power on a set of human rules or guidelines? If God created the earth and the Heavens (and science has proved that the "Heavens" extends for galaxies upon galaxies) how can "He" be so completely consumed with the happenings on this tiny speck on the boondocks of the universe?

However here is where it starts to get sticky because some people want to be able to do what they want to do even if it is a sin and so they take certain scriptures and will make a whole new doctrine from them to meet their needs and wants.

Wait, you mean people take the words of the Bible (or Koran, or Torah or _____ )and warp them to meet their own agendas? Nooooo, i can't believe that

Forgiveness only comes from a repentant heart. God only forgives if you are actually sorry you did wrong and when you are actually sorry about doing it you will not do it again. Not continuing in sin is the most sincere thing you do. You have to stop doing wrong to get forgivness. It is not given by a Catholic priest. He does not have the power to forgive sins. Only God does and he told us how to have our sins forgiven and nowhere in the Bible does it say to go to a priest and he can do it. . He tells us to turn away from sin. So then if a person sins and ask forgiveness but does it again and again then common sense tells us that he is only asking for forgivness with his mouth not his heart. God know the heart of all people and when you ask for forgiveness you will only get it if your truly want it and are not just saying it. That is how God looks at sin and forgivness.

Here's the thing though - this entire paragraph is based on the premise that the God of the Bible is all there is. That is just not the case, the entire course of human history proves as much. What it comes down to (and this is where I think you and I agree) is a matter of personal choice. You believe that the Biblical God is the truth beyond truths. Great, fantasitc, you have found a story that strikes a spiritual resonance within you. I, on the other hand, do not find such an accord. Does that make my conclusion any more or less valid than yours?

No, of course not.

You have found what works for you. The facade of God that hits you most deeply does just that - hits you and you alone. I have found a different path to approach that great unknown. Neither of us is 100% right or 100% wrong - no one, no human can find that perfect path. The best we can hope for is what works best for us as individuals.

We are arguing the style not the substance - for we all realize the importance of that substance, that deeper meaning. It's not the mask of God that matters, but the feeling He/She/It/They strike within that is important.

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

@bsully828

if you get some time there is a huge amount of reading at these threads that I think you will enjoy.

http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18976&highlight=cowardly

http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19322&highlight=cowardly

http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19569&highlight=cowardly

Lots of reading there. May take some time but it is interesting stuff. Feel free to ask any questions about anything.

[BSully828]

Re: The Devil

Thanks for the links CDJ - Even though I didn't add my thoughts, I was pretty involved with those threads. I'm familiar with the arguments presented but, to be honest, none of those discussions have yet to answer my two most fundamental questions:

1. What makes the Bible a greater authority than any other spiritual work of art?

and

2. If time is the "ultimate test" than what do you have to say about other doctrines that lasted far beyond the current length of Christianity?

If passages within those previous threads answered those questions, then I totally missed it - my bad. If not, then please clarify for my own understanding.

But I'm sorry, but using passages or examples from the Bible do not suffice as a solid answer. That's like saying "I believe what the Bible says, because the Bible says what I believe." Show me how the word of the Judeo-Christian Lord outweighs any other deity without using its own text as proof and I'll being to see your side.

By the way -- I do not mean to present myself as a complete atheist (in case that's the impression my posts have given) but I fail to see how one train of thought is the direct path to that which is, by definition, beyond our comprehension.

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

bsully I by no means take them as anything other than very good questions. You have been very well spoken so far. You have the right to ask any question you can come up with. It is that way with everybody. Some people just dont know how to ask nicely. Their choice.

I will answer the questions and it goes without saying that I will answer them not by using the Bible as its answer. I see the nonsense in that. I will use the book/religion and cave it in on itself. Then along with it I will answer the same question with the Bible and you will see the clear difference and believe for yourself. The truth fears nothing. It becomes so self evident that the Bible is the only true religion that you will spend the rest of your life doing everything you can to make sure you understand it. Trust me

Please keep these things very close to mind when you read the future posts on this subject.
1. All rules apply to all religions/books/people including the Bible (it is not exempt from its own rules)

2. I will declare anything false if only one thing can be found to be false. It only needs one thing wrong to be fallable.

The bible will be seen to be infallable.

I will answer the questions as I can due to this being Thanksgiving weekend. Not much for time as my house is host this year.

But I always make time to talk about religion. It is my life. Speculators say there is a 50/50 chance that religion is true or is not. I do not like those odds. I want 100% so I spend as much time as I can researching. Everything I have come up with has led me to the Bible as the only truth. Now my odds are 100% that religion is true and that the God of the Bible exists and is the only true and living God. It tells its own story.

[evangelion]

Re: The Devil

1. God is a man and made man in his image and made man first.

More like "Man created god in his image"

[BSully828]

Re: The Devil

Please keep these things very close to mind when you read the future posts on this subject.
1. All rules apply to all religions/books/people including the Bible (it is not exempt from its own rules)

All religions/books/people including the Bible? So the rules that apply to Christianity, also apply to Islam, to Taoism, to Gnosticism etc... etc... If a = b = c then aren't a, b, and c valid in their own right and acceptable as an answer unto itself? If the rules apply to all religions then it shouldn't matter in which way you follow the rules, just that they are adhered to.

I'm referring to "rules" here not in the case specific sense (i.e. one may say you can't eat meat on friday, another that women must be covered head to toe) but in that more broad "Golden Rule" sense that I mentioned earlier in this thread.

[Yao]

Re: The Devil

I have looked at it many weeks ago and I already know how to show you the answer to that .

There are a great many verses I could point out to show what I am talking about but to save time I am not going to give them now. If anyone wants some direct scritputes to back up my point then ask and I will post them.

Here goes a quick and absolutely Biblically sound take on the question found in the Why cant I own a canadian thread.

Everything the the writer used was from the Old Testament. The things that were mentioned were things that God required of the Jews. Sacrifices were to take away the sins of the people. God gave explicit orders often down to how to make something to the inch. People were to follow them to the letter or it was not a good sacrifice. That is why Cain killed Abel. God liked Abels sacrifice more because Abels heart was in it. The idea was that God wanted a persons heart in the sacrifice and had nothing to do with the actual sacrifice.

Much of the Old Testament predicts the coming of Christ and describes in detail many of the things that the Jews were to look for to know that he was the Christ. A list of qualifications if you will. The Jews were always looking for the coming of Christ because he was to be the new law and to replace the Law of Moses, (the old law customs that the are mentioned if the article, the 10 Commandments) He was sent to earth with the intent to die for all mans sins past present and future. He knew that he was on earth to die. If you read Galatians you will come to an understanding. There are some mentions in Hebrews as well.

The situations with Christ is basically this. Jews were looking for Christ. Christ came and spent his entire life fullfilling prophesy after prophesy of the coming Messiah. He told of his purpose for coming to earth was to die for mans sins once for all. He was the perfect sacrifice sent by God to cleanse the world of its sins. Since Adam and Eve sinned all man has been destined to die and all have sinned since. Jesus was perfect. In him was no sin at all. He never sinned. He was subjected to every little thought that we are subjected to. He was a man on all accounts just like us. He was tempted by all the sins we are tempted by, yet did none. He died to make peace between God and man and his blood is referred to as the cleansing blood of the lamb. It is represented when you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. You are then added to the kingdom and no man can take you out, however you can chose to not follow Gods commands and remove yourself from the kingdom.

The reason we do not do any of the things mentioned in the Old Testament is because it died on the cross with Jesus. He is the new law and since his coming we follow what was given us in the New Testament.

The Old Testament was a guide (the covenant between God and Moses) to pave the way for Jesus who is the New Covenant between God and Man.

any questions

Um...okay...I only needed that last paragraph to get what you were trying to tell me CDJ

And yes i think the letter might be a little bit over the top, but what it still clearly demonstrates to me is the selectiveness with which fundamentalists(1) choose how they define their do's and do-nots.

As an example: last week we had a fundamentalist Muslim woman (!!!) in a show, talking to a few show hosts, and they asked the question why, if all non-muslims should be smited, they did not do so right then and there. The answer was: "That is too much of a hassle now".

Not to compare you to that woman dude, but this answer shows a certain degree of intrumentality: you do what is possible, but the other commandments which are just viable, you don't execute...in this particular case because the task at hand was too big. In other cases because it might be totally unwanted for or unacceptable in the present days.

I mean...you like progressive house, right? Do you visit clubs, or are those totally off limits for you now? A few Christian friends of mine told me it's the music of the devil, that is seduces you into doing evil stuff and that they will certainly never ever set foot in a club, since it's a kind of Sodom and Gomorrah in a nutshell...

What are your thoughts on that?

(1) unless some other people I make a clear distinction between fundamentalism, revivalism and militants.

[bart_smastard]

Re: The Devil

Cdj .. Christ was without sin .Hmmmm. Didn't he let some hooker give him a sensual foot wash using her hair ? ( at least Clinton did it with an intern)

Or did he allow that just for her benefit ?

And I'm with Yao on the laws thing , if the do's and do nots where created by an omnipitant being then they should not whither with time or need updating ..

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

Sully as far as rules goes in the term that I mentioned it is this.... all rules I will use to show you the false doctrines I will use judge the Bible as well. No favorites. I have that much confidence in the Bible that I do not care what you compare to it, from any religion, it will stand the test.

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

Yao, I do not club. I just enjoy the music at home. Music alone has no sin as it is just sound. It is when you start adding vocals that people's thoughts are then brought forward and it is no longer music but music with another element. Like Hydrogen and Oxygen are seperate entities until they join and then they are a new entity. Music is just sound.

Music has no sin. It is the person listening to the music's thought if it is instumental. If there are vocals it is now the thoughts of the singer/writer. Clearly two different things here.

Did I mention that music is just sound and no words and that it was not a sin?

Free the music I say, no more vocals in any genre. Lets start a movement.

Did I mention music has no sin?

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

To repeate what Yao, myself and others have said - you can't prove your point by referring to the Bible. The arguement here is that the Bible is not the definitve word on spirituality. Again I refer you to earlier posts where you have been called upon to prove why the Bible superceeds the Torah, Koran, Upanishads, Vedas, etc... etc...

I will get back with that as I am still doing some more research and gathering my thoughts.