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wow, i seriously cant beleive some of the shit posted in this thread.
I'm also very suprised with the large amount of dribble that has been posted on this thread.
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
yes, dont scold, contribute. what is your thoughts on the area's future, not on how wrong we were in going in there. but what they have to look forward to.
your life is an occasion, rise to it.
Join My Chant. new mix. april 09. dirty fuck house.
download that. deep shit listed there
Srry if this sounds like i'm genralising and stereotyping .. But he's Australian
He dosn't have any thoughts .
Srry to drop down to those kind of comments .. But other than beer , beaches and barbies the only thing an Autralian brain can comprehend is a totaly dumbed down stupid version of football . They used to be good at cricket and rugby at some point too .. But England kicked their asses so they can't be much good at them any more
On a side note: this thread has the possibility of going 20 pages, so I ask one thing ? let?s keep it civil. These are heavy issues and most of us feel passionate about our perspective. I probably have said some things that you vehemently disagree with ? this fine, even expected - but if you choose to respond, try to do so in a way that doesn?t involve the same stupid shit that has ruined past discussions. It?s easy to say ?fuckin Bush lovin? dumbass? but not only does that make you look like a fool, it also makes it hard for someone to take you seriously. I would bet that anyone who feels strongly about this has given it a lot of thought and has come to their decision after considerable debate and soul searching ? try to keep that in mind before you start railing away. Give your opinion, that?s what we?re here for, but show a little intelligence and do so in a respectful, rational way. That?s all I ask.
yes, dont scold, contribute. what is your thoughts on the area's future, not on how wrong we were in going in there. but what they have to look forward to.
Don't mean to, it's just a little frustration with all that is going on.
By the way, below is not directed at you Sightless, just my thoughts.
I believe Iraq is already having a civil war and has been for quite some time now. Thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed and injured by the Iraqis themselves.
This to me is an act of civil war. If it's not than what else do we call this?
It seems that the power has gone from the minority Sunnis and has been given to the majority Shiite. Payback time perhaps?
Some suggest that the US should stay and finish the job.
What exactly does this mean? What job is there to finish?
It seems the only enemy that the US forces have is the Iraqi resistance and who in their right mind can blame them for fighting back?
There is nothing left for the US to do except to leave ASAP and start rebuilding the damage that it has caused and to compensate the Iraqi nation for the disastrous and shameful invasion on a country that had never posed a threat to the US. Put simply, do something positive.
A country cannot move and do as it wants freely whilst still under occupation.
Last edited by dig72; December 13, 2005, 01:08:24 AM.
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
More than 60% of the Iraqi population has said their life is better now than it ever was under Saddam, 3/4 said they think their life will be even better 12 months from now.
I really doubt that the average Iraqi preferred to live under the iron fist of Saddam and his gang of thugs - they just didn't have any other option.
I would like to know where you got that information...
Some suggest that the US should stay and finish the job.
What exactly does this mean? What job is there to finish?
It seems the only enemy that the US forces have is the Iraqi resistance and who in their right mind can blame them for fighting back?
There is nothing left for the US to do except to leave ASAP and start rebuilding the damage that it has caused and to compensate the Iraqi nation for the disastrous and shameful invasion on a country that had never posed a threat to the US. Put simply, do something positive.
A country cannot move and do as it wants freely whilst still under occupation.
Leave AND start rebuilding??? How do you suggest it starts rebuilding?
I was never in favour of invading Iraq but now the 'coalition' has to stay and rebuild the country. If the US really wants to assert its power around the world it can't simply depose dictators and leave somebody else to clear up.
To leave Iraq now would be catastrophic for the Middle East and, possibly, the world. The ongoing civil war will continue, potentially it will become a breeding ground for al-Qaeda and/or another Iranian-style theocracy could emerge.
Bush wants to spread freedom and democracy around the world ? leaving Iraq now would do the opposite.
Iraq will become the same as all the other 'problematic' countries around the world left to itself. Look at Afghanistan for a country that's been left high-and-dry.
Surveys are entirely subjective but...
Interviewers found that 71% of those questioned said things were currently very or quite good in their personal lives, while 29% found their lives very or quite bad.
When asked whether their lives would improve in the coming year, 64% said things would be better and 12% said they expected things to be worse.
However, Iraqis appear to have a more negative view of the overall situation in their country, with 53% answering that the situation is bad, and 44% saying it is good.
But they were more hopeful for the future - 69% expect Iraq to improve, while 11% say it will worsen.
I would like to know where you got that information...
To go along with the stats Mixu just posted, Senator Joe Lieberman - a Democrate, mind you - also made this observation while on his most recent trip to Iraq. Check it out for yourself.
Originally posted by Joe Lieberman
Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.
Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not; a sense of humor to console him for what he is.
In the here and now, Lieberman is a Democrat in name only. I don't have a problem with the guy, but he's lobbying for the Secretary of Defense spot right now, so you've kinda got to read his comments about the war with the understanding that he is trying to curry favor with the President...
wow, i seriously cant beleive some of the shit posted in this thread. We should have never gone into iraq in the first place, saddam was holding shit down there and we just pretty much fucked it up without a plan. Sure he was a evil tyrant dictator but he ruled with an iron fist and not too many people stepped out of line. Compare that to now, some cultures prefer to be ruled that way, thats just how shit works.
If I lived in a country that was ruled by an evil, murderous, insane, thug that killed whole families at the drop of a hat, gassed my fellow citizens, raped and tortured our women, etc...I would wish that someone would come in and end it...I seriously doubt any Iraqi's preferred to live that way...as stated before, they had no choice but to live in those conditions. There are Iraqi citizens who are too young to know any different...
Alright...U.S. opinion polls. Didn't the U.S. also spend 100 million to U.S. and Iraq Public Relations firms to improve are current image. Maybe some of those "polls" are just some good PR. Maybe not. It was wrong to go over there in the first place with out support. Maybe I'm just a crazy pot head liberal. Maybe
Leave AND start rebuilding??? How do you suggest it starts rebuilding?
When I say leave, I mean the military. There is nothing left for them to do.
They do not know what they are doing there anymore. The longer they stay the greater the resistance will be, resulting in the continued destruction of Iraq and more unnecessary deaths of US soldiers.
What other options does the US have?
As for Iraq becoming a breeding ground for 'terrorists'/resistance or an Iranian style theocracy, well it's a little too late and you can thank GWB for that.
George Bush does not want to spread 'freedom or democracy' around the globe. To suggest the opposite is just lunacy or laughable imo .
You cannot spread 'freedom and democracy' using bullets and bombs.
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Alright...U.S. opinion polls. Didn't the U.S. also spend 100 million to U.S. and Iraq Public Relations firms to improve are current image. Maybe some of those "polls" are just some good PR. Maybe not. It was wrong to go over there in the first place with out support. Maybe I'm just a crazy pot head liberal. Maybe
You're right this did happen.
It's difficult to take any poll seriously.
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
In the here and now, Lieberman is a Democrat in name only. I don't have a problem with the guy, but he's lobbying for the Secretary of Defense spot right now, so you've kinda got to read his comments about the war with the understanding that he is trying to curry favor with the President...
To come back with anything less would've been political suicide.
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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