Iraq --- We're never leaving

[superdave]

Here's my pov on Iraq -- I don't think we'll ever completely leave Iraq or at least not for many years. Here's why, first the country would erupt into civil war. We can't leave until at least Iraq is able to police itself which seems at least a couple of years away. The "insurgent" attacks will continue and are a unnecessary distraction from Iraq becoming a nation again. They'll continue truck bombing to drive us out of there and the Democrats and moveon.org asking for timetables helps the insurgents cause.

Second, if we leave Iraq unable to defend itself then Iran will invade Iraq. Who knows how Israel will react and could cause a war throughout the Middle East. Who's to say China doesn't invade Iraq for its oil wells if we leave? They're one of the fastest growing nations dependent on oil. I'm sure other nations are planning things in anticipation of our timetable to leave Iraq.

Finally, it comes down to us needing oil at a reasonable price. If the Middle East is in turmoil after we leave Iraq then the price of oil will skyrocket. FYI - the price of oil not only effects you at the pump, but the whole economy.

Whether we would've or should've gotten in this war is really history. I think we need to face reality and realize this will finally cost us lots of money and lives.

[dig72]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

Here's my pov on Iraq -- I don't think we'll ever completely leave Iraq or at least not for many years. Here's why, first the country would erupt into civil war. We can't leave until at least Iraq is able to police itself which seems at least a couple of years away. The "insurgent" attacks will continue and are a unnecessary distraction from Iraq becoming a nation again. They'll continue truck bombing to drive us out of there and the Democrats and moveon.org asking for timetables helps the insurgents cause.

Second, if we leave Iraq unable to defend itself then Iran will invade Iraq. Who knows how Israel will react and could cause a war throughout the Middle East. Who's to say China doesn't invade Iraq for its oil wells if we leave? They're one of the fastest growing nations dependent on oil. I'm sure other nations are planning things in anticipation of our timetable to leave Iraq.

Finally, it comes down to us needing oil at a reasonable price. If the Middle East is in turmoil after we leave Iraq then the price of oil will skyrocket. FYI - the price of oil not only effects you at the pump, but the whole economy.

Whether we would've or should've gotten in this war is really history. I think we need to face reality and realize this will finally cost us lots of money and lives.

You need to get a clue dude.

Seriously.

[mixu]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

I agree completely. I didn't agree with the original reasons for going to war ? although in retrospect there was a case, albeit made very, very badly.

But the US has to stay in Iraq for the long-term. Bush keeps referring to the success stories of West Germany and Japan ? the US still has troops in Germany now. For a stable and democratic Iraq there is no quick fix.

If you start a job you have to see it through.

Niall Ferguson says it better:

The kind of violence that we could see in Iraq if we quit now, leaving full-scale civil war to rage, would dwarf all that has happened since 2003. I once asked a friend in Beirut what he thought would end up happening in Iraq. "Like Lebanon in the 1980s," he replied, "but to the power of ten."

https://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/09/25/do2502.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/09/25/ixopinion.html

I really don't see China invading Iraq though. Oil was never the sole purpose.

[BSully828]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

When you take a step back and give this whole mess a long, hard, objective look - what other choice do we have? If we pull out now it will be a disaster of fucking EPIC proportions – I mean like Ferry Corsten epic.

I agreed with the war from the start, and I agreed with the notion that it was something that needed to be done in order for the Middle East and the world as a whole to progress. Watching the admin completely butcher the justification and explanation as to why certainly made it tough to keep that support up, but I felt and still feel that what is happening now will make the world a safer, more prosperous place for our children and our children's children.

We are laying the groundwork for a whole new way of life for these people. What we are doing now will, in time, provide an entire civilization the same luxuries and benefits the rest of the modern world has enjoyed for the past 200 years. If you think that the sole purpose behind our involvement there was personal profit for the “PNAC” boys, then I don’t what to tell you brother – you’ve got a pretty bleak, Hollywood-warped view of mankind, imo.

This has been anything but a well run war effort. Mistakes – some small, some enormous – have been and will continue to be made, those are the breaks. I wish there was better justification for that, but that’s just how it goes. Humans are subject to some big fucking errors and if we have learned anything the past three years, it is that those in power are often all too human. War is an insane, irrational, and totally unbelievable act that goes against the most basic values that everyone on this earth share – but it is an act that is sometimes unavoidable, and sometimes the only means to move forward. Strange thought, I know – progress through destruction – but until we as a species can find another answer, it is what it is.

You can disagree on the reasons that brought us to war, and there is plenty to disagree with, but the fact is we are there and we’re going to be there for a while - it is the only viable option we have. I pray that future administrations do not head for the door before the work is done, and done right. This will be remembered as a turning point in human history and to do anything other than completing the job would be a catastrophic failure. I don’t even want to imagine what the world would be like should we cut and run.

On a side note: this thread has the possibility of going 20 pages, so I ask one thing – let’s keep it civil. These are heavy issues and most of us feel passionate about our perspective. I probably have said some things that you vehemently disagree with – this fine, even expected - but if you choose to respond, try to do so in a way that doesn’t involve the same stupid shit that has ruined past discussions. It’s easy to say “fuckin Bush lovin’ dumbass” but not only does that make you look like a fool, it also makes it hard for someone to take you seriously. I would bet that anyone who feels strongly about this has given it a lot of thought and has come to their decision after considerable debate and soul searching – try to keep that in mind before you start railing away. Give your opinion, that’s what we’re here for, but show a little intelligence and do so in a respectful, rational way. That’s all I ask.

[toasty]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

Democrats and moveon.org asking for timetables helps the insurgents cause.

You know, I hear this a lot, but it has never really rung true for me. When people ask for a timetable, they aren't asking for a date certain on which we will leave, such that the insurgents can lie in wait and unleash hell the day after we get out of Dodge. I've always viewed it as a request for some guidelines that reflect that we have some sort of plan; frankly, much of the country has been wondering what our fearless leaders have had in mind for some time now, and I'm not sure that Bush's speech last week really cleared things up on that front all too much.

In short, there is a level of detail beyond, "When the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down" that can be conveyed to the public that will not harm the war effort.

[toasty]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

]I agreed with the war from the start, and I agreed with the notion that it was something that needed to be done in order for the Middle East and the world as a whole to progress.
...
War is an insane, irrational, and totally unbelievable act that goes against the most basic values that everyone on this earth share ? but it is an act that is sometimes unavoidable, and sometimes the only means to move forward.

I agree with your sentiments I've quoted above. Here's the question that always bothered me from the outset, though: why did we invade Iraq when we did?

War is at times unavoidable, but I don't think it was unavoidable in this situation. My number 1 beef, though, is that we went into Iraq without finishing the job in Afghanistan first. Osama bin Laden is still among the living, and the bulk of our military is stuck in a real pickle. I have a serious problem with that.

What's worse, though, is the long term impact this can have on our military. Recruitment is down. Who would want to join the military now to fight in an unpopular war? Further, we owe it to those in the military who risk their lives for our country to send them to war only when it is truly unavoidable. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, it is pretty clear that the Iraq war could have started a month later, a year later, or next Tuesday, and it is fairly unlikely that the US would have been in any more danger. Who would want to join the military when you know there is a trigger happy redneck leading the charge?

Time and place. That's all I'm saying.

[thesightless]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

I agree with your sentiments I've quoted above. Here's the question that always bothered me from the outset, though: why did we invade Iraq when we did?

because bill clinton was a pussy. kidding

i say we give it back to saddam and get the troops out, and say fuck you to the far left that think we have done no good there. this retarded war is dividing a gov't, taking over a admin that was off to a good start right away, and has completely forced our govt to become more partisan, more full f shit, and they actually do less for the US citizen than ever did.


give the baathists power again, and say, "if what we did was so wrong, watch now"


god im so tired of this shit. we are there, we have fought and given lives for a foreign cause, so can we talk about what we need to do, rather than what we did wrong.

[BSully828]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

I agree with your sentiments I've quoted above. Here's the question that always bothered me from the outset, though: why did we invade Iraq when we did?

There was a political analyst who broke it down it a real clear way, and one that made most sense to me – I wish I could find the article. Anyway, his opinion was that the administration took a “strike while the iron is hot” approach. We had a strong arm sweeping through Afghanistan, the terrorists were on the run and the idea was to keep the pressure coming down from all sides. Rather than chase them across boarders and always stay one step behind, hit them where we know they would be trying to hide. This would not only further snuff out the swarm of terrorists but tip the first domino in the chain of changes that would spread across Middle East. It was a risky move and the only way it could be done, and done correctly, is if those who called the shots said, “Once we start, we see it through – no turning back.”

In hindsight I’m sure there would have been a different approach in terms of preparation and planning – but at the time there was no time, action had to be taken and it to be done decisively, definitively. Obviously that would lead to some people calling the president close-minded, ignorant of criticism, unwilling to consider other options ect.. ect.., but sometimes you have to do what you think is right regardless of the impending backlash.

because bill clinton was a pussy. kidding

I know you’re being sarcastic but there is a little truth to this. Prior to 9/11, the US and allies were pussies when it came to terrorism. We knew that tensions were through the roof between the ME and the West and to upset that region would unleash a massive shitstorm that nobody wanted to deal with. So we stayed back, placated the sympathizers and wagged a finger at tyrants like Saddam – all in the hopes that we wouldn’t piss them off and they would leave us alone.

Then the Towers fell – they had taken it to us.

At that point we had two options:

• To continue the trend of appeasement and wrist-slapping that had made up the majority of conflict resolution in the past decade+
• Take a stand and end this shit. Go after those who had been getting away with murder (literally) and put a stop to the reign of terror perpetrated by those who had no other wish then to destroy.

You’re right Toasty – the invasion of Iraq really could have taken place at anytime, it was something that was bound to happen sooner or later. The heads in DC decided to make that happen sooner rather than later. They made a decision, knew there would be no turning back and went with it. To them the prospect of ending decades of terror and destruction outweighed the unavoidable PR slaughter and scorn that would be levied against them.

[thesightless]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

historically, wars bring about the more peaceful and prosperous times for the regions affected. europe and the US rebounded after WW2 , working together. africa's north was finally organized. the economy of the world boomed. we can only hope for this after this whole whole fucking bullshit. god i really hate politicians and political analysts

[toasty]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

can we talk about what we need to do, rather than what we did wrong.

That would certainly be ideal. On the other hand, imagine for a moment that I come over to your place and promply drop a turd right on your coffee table. Then I say, "Let's not worry about how the turd got there, let's figure out how we're going to get rid of it." I doubt very seriously that I'd get a free pass on that.

Bush has created a similarly shitty situation as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think we ought to forget how the turd got on the coffee table in the first place. Even if you agree with the Iraq war, you would have to agree that there have been serious issues with the manner in which it has been conducted. Recognizing that Bush and his buddies' utter incompetence is what got us into this mess is the first step to understanding that allowing him to try to get us out may not be the right path. Looks like Rumsfeld will be gone in a few weeks, which is a step in the right direction.

As for what we need to do, I haven't got the foggiest, and I suspect if any of us knew, we'd be on the cover of Time rather than chatting on [ms]. I do know that I'd like to see some of the other leadership in Washington step up and take a more active role in this process -- republicans and democrats alike. I want the guy that took a shit on my coffee table out of my living room, though.

I'm not suggesting impeachment, mind you, just that Bush's influence in this whole mess be minimized to the extent possible.

[anonin]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

wow, i seriously cant beleive some of the shit posted in this thread. We should have never gone into iraq in the first place, saddam was holding shit down there and we just pretty much fucked it up without a plan. Sure he was a evil tyrant dictator but he ruled with an iron fist and not too many people stepped out of line. Compare that to now, some cultures prefer to be ruled that way, thats just how shit works.

[thesightless]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

no,. i would tell you to clean it up and pay for the clearners to come, if not, i would knock you in the head.

in regards to how the war was conducted.... well in modern, post WW2 age, we cant operate an efficient war. there are too many treaties and laws to be followed. lol, war with rules, always fuond that ironic. if we really wanted to end this shit, we would start shooting the people who cheer in the streets when troops die, we would go into palestine when HAMAS has marches and drop a few bombs on all of them and we would send every single military memebr into the ural mountains and pakistan, find bin laden and put him on TV and put a fucking bullet in his head or torture him. THAT WOULD HAVE EFFECT. but we cant, we are civilized and frankly i wouldnt want to see it. dropping a few nukes would solve the problem, but that is like using a car to run over an ant when you can just step on it. we're fucked either way. the ones who we are hunting are invisble and vicious. they dont care and frankly to fight a fight, you need to fight like your enemy. a boxer wouldnt fight a wrestler, and a basketball player wouldnt stand a chance in a baseball game.

[anonin]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

no,. i would tell you to clean it up and pay for the clearners to come, if not, i would knock you in the head.

in regards to how the war was conducted.... well in modern, post WW2 age, we cant operate an efficient war. there are too many treaties and laws to be followed. lol, war with rules, always fuond that ironic. if we really wanted to end this shit, we would start shooting the people who cheer in the streets when troops die, we would go into palestine when HAMAS has marches and drop a few bombs on all of them and we would send every single military memebr into the ural mountains and pakistan, find bin laden and put him on TV and put a fucking bullet in his head or torture him. THAT WOULD HAVE EFFECT. but we cant, we are civilized and frankly i wouldnt want to see it. dropping a few nukes would solve the problem, but that is like using a car to run over an ant when you can just step on it. we're fucked either way. the ones who we are hunting are invisble and vicious. they dont care and frankly to fight a fight, you need to fight like your enemy. a boxer wouldnt fight a wrestler, and a basketball player wouldnt stand a chance in a baseball game.

was this aimed at me?

[BSully828]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

wow, i seriously cant beleive some of the shit posted in this thread. We should have never gone into iraq in the first place, saddam was holding shit down there and we just pretty much fucked it up without a plan. Sure he was a evil tyrant dictator but he ruled with an iron fist and not too many people stepped out of line. Compare that to now, some cultures prefer to be ruled that way, thats just how shit works.

More than 60% of the Iraqi population has said their life is better now than it ever was under Saddam, 3/4 said they think their life will be even better 12 months from now.

I really doubt that the average Iraqi preferred to live under the iron fist of Saddam and his gang of thugs - they just didn't have any other option.

[thesightless]

Re: Iraq --- We're never leaving

lol, no toasty wants to shit on my carpet.