2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[Yao]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Your first post says you are a muslim from arab origin .. my guess is that over 50,000 ppl of such background were born in the uk last year . or do they not have muslims or arabs in switzerland .. i guess i would be guilty of racism and stereotyping to state that all swiss are white christian who can trace their swiss ancestry back through 10 generations . it's called the modern world where ppl from all orgins and faiths reside in the same country . or are you an economic refugee who resents the country he's living in and prefers to think of himself as belonging to another country ?
if so write it in ure fucking location under ure bleeding name

no offense intended

You can't really blame him for simply stating his location dude, nowhere it is said that it should be your preferred location . Anyway, Someone's descent might be important for their political views, but in the end it's the arguments that count IMO. So drop it guys, and move on with the discussion. No 'buts', those posts will be removed from the thread.

[Yao]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Iran is in the media spotlight. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution, anti-Israel noises have consistently been coming from the Iranian government. Ahmadinejad is saying nothing that hasn't been said before. Iran is being watched and reported with much greater interest due to the media's anticipation of the US government's next move.

The president of Iran is not a warmonger. He is not at war with anyone. He definitely likes to stoke fires though and is doing so with gusto. But even neutral Israeli reports aren't surprised by the comments coming from Tehran. There is a great deal of bitterness that Iran is being dissuaded to build nuclear facilities for alleged peaceful purposes, having signed the NPT, whereas Israel have hordes of nuclear weapons and constantly flaunt International Law.

>Did you know: USA has been constantly involved in war with one country or another for over 50 years

Ahmadinejad is looked upon as a joke character by the majority of Iranian citizens. People mock his appearance, describing him as a Tea room waiter who needs a bath!

I guess you're right on this one hauser, it's just that with Khatami Iran at least had a little bit of political counterweight to it's religious hardline core, but that is gone now. I have no clue as to wether they would actually want to make nuclear weapons, but at least under Khatami I was pretty convinced of his peacul intentions. I hope Ahmadinejad is the clown they take him for (although I did see he was poking the fire a bit)...

[bart_smastard]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Wise move YAO . And back to what Hos said . Apparently the Iranian president dosn't realy weild any signifficant power in his own country and he is merely a puppet put there to show Iran is a democracy . The clerics make all the main decisions and they have always insisted Isreal did not belong in the region . Nuclear weapons for the past 50 years have been used as a hands off signal to any country with ideas of invasion . Isreal has used them as such , North Korea is using them in the same way against the Americans .
My worry with Iran is that they would actualy fire them .

[Yao]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

And on top of that: the puppet is time one that is very much willing to co-operate with the players...

He is indeed just stirring things up, and I've had to laugh a few times about his remarks too, but kicking around you can also lead to big trouble. Luckily Israel is one of those countries that usually keep their heads really cool!

[dig72]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

I don't think the Israelis ever set bombs in stuffed animals on the beach waiting for children to pick them up and get arms blown off, as Arafat's crew did some time back.

Casualties are a part of war. Israel is reacting to the attacks, not initiating them as the Pal. do on an ongoing basis. Provacation generates a reaction. If Pals are hurt in the processs, then maybe they should stop the provoking/attacks.

Palestinian civilians are also intentionally killed by Israeli soldiers.

Occupation is provocation.

[Yao]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

I am a bit confused though: Jews are not new to the area, if they were, the current situation would constitute occupation for me. This is more like a secession technically, and yes the Israelians have comitted atrocities too. The point is that recently, the Israelians have tried as much as they could to aim their attacks specifically at those elements that continue to destbilise the peace process in the first place: civilians are among the casualties, but not so much because the Israelians are aiming to kill, rather because the Palestinian fighters/terrorists hide themselves among innocent people. Best way to put the shit on anotherone's head, but I will not neglect the fact that they target specifically innocent people on the streets going about their daily lives.

In Palestine you have the opportinuty to avoid being attacked by not getting involved with the 'freedom fighters', but in Israel anyone can be subject to an attack. And that makes the big difference between the two to me.

I am however not anti-Palestine...I believe the majority of the Palestinians just wants to co-exist in peace, it's the hardcore fucking it up again, pushing their agenda and denying the 'common man' a decent life by bringing violence upon them. Israel has show good will, but like Dave said: this goes two ways, and as long as the militant Palestine groups aren't willing to stand down, one can hardly blame Israel at the moment.

[bart_smastard]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

^^ Aborigini's could say the same .
If Palestine was a peacful society/did not support terroists and was not allied with other countries that despised Jewish presence in the middle east . Then the world would of forced Isreal to the negotiating table whether they liked it or not . But whilst there is violence and tit for tat killings by both sides the rest of the world cannot interfere . Sad but unfortunately true

[davetlv]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

if you dont have tanks and high powered guns..dont you have to go out of your way to get revenge? thats why they have to strap..c'mon its common sense. give them tanks etc and lets see if they would rather strap themselfs.

put yourself in their situation. now if i was a palestinian, i would be pisssssed! if i was a Isralian , damn i be kicking back and be drinking my beer! and you want the palestinian to do some kind of peace..like how can you explain? i dont think they have the power to do so...i think the one with the power should do something about it..they have the POWER to do so do they not? power is only used for war? Im just your average joe but when i see something wrong i can spot it right away...i have that skill..im crazy like that! lmao..

Prog, welcome to the debate.

Its nothing to do with having tanks and shit. The Palestinians have been occupied since 1948 by the Jordanians, Egyptians and now Israelis. Occupation is wrong. Am i clear on that fact!

However a resonable response to occupation is an armed struggle against the military and or the government. I don't really have a problem with that. What is totally unacceptable is strapping devices to your bodies and blowing up men women and children within the soverign borders of Israel.

Now, as side bar, think of it another way. For twenty four years when Israel truely occupied the west bank and gaza, most of the action by the Palestinians was against the army and government of the state of Israel. From 94, when Aratwat returned to the territories and the PA was created, Palestinians started to kill civillians left right and centre. This technique was the technique of the PLO, a terror organisation.

Aratwat and his cronies in the PLO/Fatah have caused more harm to the Palestinian people than Israel has. Think about that one mr/ms average joe

[davetlv]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Iran is in the media spotlight. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution, anti-Israel noises have consistently been coming from the Iranian government. Ahmadinejad is saying nothing that hasn't been said before. Iran is being watched and reported with much greater interest due to the media's anticipation of the US government's next move.

Wrong Hos, so so wrong. The comments that Ahmadinejad has been coming out with is far more extreme than anything since the great revolution of 79.

The president of Iran is not a warmonger. He is not at war with anyone. He definitely likes to stoke fires though and is doing so with gusto. But even neutral Israeli reports aren't surprised by the comments coming from Tehran. There is a great deal of bitterness that Iran is being dissuaded to build nuclear facilities for alleged peaceful purposes, having signed the NPT, whereas Israel have hordes of nuclear weapons and constantly flaunt International Law.

You're rights he's not a warmonger, he's either an idiot or he has the best spin doctors working for him. Whilst his tirade against Israel is not surprising his shift to complete holocaust denial is an affront to every human on this planet. The fact that he seems to be alligning himself with such discredited historians as David Irving and Ernst Zundel just proves his complete and utter stupidity.

As far as the NPT goes, if Iran no longer want to be held accountable to the confines of the NPT then they can leave its framework, like I believe Pakistan did a nuber of years ago. Whilst however they are signed upto it then there is absolutly no reason that one of the oil richest countries on this planets need to look at nuclear technology for fuel, and lets say that their ambitions are peaceful, then it should be done under the supervision of the IAEA. See what i mean?

Instead of accusing Israel of flauting International law maybe you would like to give examples of where they are doing so? Are they flauting international law by not being a signatory to the NPT? No they are not. What else were you thinking of? And please, subtle warning, you had better quote chapter and verse on your claims because dude i will counter ever spurious allegation you are making here, so as the old addage goes, put up or shut up. I get sick and tired of people blindly making accusation about my country and never backing them up.

And just a note of caution, if you are going to quote UN resolutions make sure you know which chapter the resolution falls under, and what the penalty for ignoring them are, cos Hos, i know them all. So bring it on

[dig72]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

it amazes me how the west can still blame Israel for the empass in the peace process whilst ignoring the PA and their role.

This is understandable but trust me, the PA are not ignored, they do recieve a bit of scrutiny in our media and this has been nothing new.
The other thing the West is reminded of is that, the Palestinians are under occupation and the biggest victims in all of this are the Palestinians.

Occupation I believe, is the biggest problem in this conflict.

[bart_smastard]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

With Sharon in hospital and his health not looking too good for the future things are maybe about to get messy quickly . Is their anyone else strong enough in parliment to unite Isreal ? If the Lukid party get back into power which is now a predominantly rightwing party things could get nasty . Elections are only 6 months away i think and from what iv'e read that are no moderates big enough to step into Sharons shoes.

[davetlv]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

With Sharon in hospital and his health not looking too good for the future things are maybe about to get messy quickly . Is their anyone else strong enough in parliment to unite Isreal ? If the Lukid party get back into power which is now a predominantly rightwing party things could get nasty . Elections are only 6 months away i think and from what iv'e read that are no moderates big enough to step into Sharons shoes.

I'm pleased to report that our Prime Minister seems to be fine. His minor stroke has caused no harm, and he is expected back at work within a few days.

As the Likud primaries showed today they are no longer the formidable force in Israeli politics, and the country is eager to move to a more central position.

Elections are scheduled for March 26th (i think) - the question we need to concern ourselves with is whether Kadima is a party inspite of its leadership - many commentators here think that obviously if something serious would happen to Sharon then Kadima would drop some in the polls, but on the whole, they believe that the party would still win even if it was headed by Olmert or Tzipi Livni.

Whilst naturally no one could step into Sharons shoes, or oversized pants, the political shift away from Left and Right has happened - whilst Kadima might only be a flash in the pan party for the coming election, whats clear is that they will garner more votes at the polls.

Just my own analysis mind you, what the fuck do i know