question.

[thesightless]

if hamas and thier fellow gun toting teenagers win even more, what happens to the accord from 47?? if they attain power and basically try to rid the region of jewish peoples, what does euro/US do?? are we bound to fight hamas and the violent side of the palestinain groups even though they might slowly become a legally represented group and begin to change te local laws? b/c then it will lead to outside forces trying to set the laws of the region.


lastly, really for dave, how bad is this? annoying>frightful>nothing? just YOUR thoughts on the results. yet again, american media and even the BBC are failling.


just had this pass through my skull.

opinions? ideas?? solutions???

imma shut up and let ya speak for a bit.

dave and yao and those ubre left and right people are what i wanna hear. no arguing, just what think. dont counter each other.

[anonin]

Re: question.

I'm going to have to research this a bit. I'm not familiar with the "accord from 47". I'll get back with you on this.

[Yao]

Re: question.

^^Don't call me uberleft please, I may be somewhat of a socialist but I'm not a goddamn treehugger

Anyway: I think Hamas has been clear about it's goals, and with Arafat's clique sucking the Palestinians dry, who's to blame them for their choice? They've been fucked by their own representatives, and (wether true or not), still feel oppressed by Israel. In their eyes, Hamas may be the only way to regain their pride.

Personally, I'm losing faith in a political solution here...not that I don't advocate it, but I don't really see it happening anymore. Some agressive negociating from the side of the Palestinians is nothing grave, but if they keep to their word and start a damn war, I guess the Middle East is in for some real shit, and David had better pack his shit and come over to my place

[davetlv]

Re: question.

I'm going to have to research this a bit. I'm not familiar with the "accord from 47". I'll get back with you on this.

anonin - the following is shamelessly lifted from wikipedia

1947 -UN Partition Plan

On 29 November 1947 the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict in the British Mandate of Palestine, was approved by the United Nations General Assembly, at the UN World Headquarters in New York. The plan partitioned the territory into Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area (encompassing Bethlehem) coming under international control. The failure of this plan led to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

On November 29, the UN General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of the Partition Plan, while making some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal.

The Jewish state was to receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine. This included the fruitful shore plain and the Negev desert. The desert was not suitable for agriculture, nor for urban development at that time. The land allocated to the Jewish state was largely that where there was a significant Jewish population By 1947, about 6.5% of the land of Palestine was owned by Jewish individuals and interests.
The Jewish population was concentrated in settlement areas in 1947. The borders were drawn to encompass them, placing 98% of the Jewish population in the Jewish state.
The Jewish population was concentrated in settlement areas in 1947. The borders were drawn to encompass them, placing 98% of the Jewish population in the Jewish state.

The UN General Assembly resolutions are non-binding. The UN made the recommendation for a three-way partition of Palestine into a Jewish State, an Arab State and a small internationally administered zone including the religiously significant towns Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The two states envisioned in the plan were each composed of three major sections, linked by extraterritorial crossroads. The Jewish state would receive the Coastal Plain, stretching from Haifa to Rehovot, the Eastern Galilee (surrounding the Sea of Galilee and including the Galilee panhandle) and the Negev, including the southern outpost of Umm Rashrash (now Eilat). The Arab state would receive the Western Galilee, with the town of Acre, the Samarian highlands and the Judean highlands, and the southern coast stretching from north of Isdud (now Ashdod) and encompassing what is now the Gaza Strip, with a section of desert along the Egyptian border. The UNSCOP report placed the mostly-Arab town of Jaffa, just south of Tel Aviv, in the Jewish state, but it was moved to form an enclave part of the Arab State before the proposal went before the UN.

The plan was a compromise position based on two other plans, giving more or less land to each state.

Reactions to the plan

Political pressure by proponents of partition was used to get the UN to pass the partition proposal. The majority of the Jews and Jewish groups accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. A minority of extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's [[Lehi (group)]|Lehi], (known as the Stern Gang) which had been fighting the British, rejected it. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29th (the date of this session) as the most important date in the Israel's acquisition of independence. However Jews did criticise the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state.

The Arab leadership opposed the plan, arguing that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000). While some Arab leaders opposed the right of the Jews for self-determination in the region, others criticised the amount and quality of land given to Israel. They argued that the area of the Jewish state comprised 55% percent of the Mandate territory, while the Jews owned only 6.5% of it. (The proposal, however, was not solely for the Jews in Palestine but for a secure Jewish homeland.)

Fighting began almost as soon as the plan was approved, beginning with the Jerusalem Riots of 1947.

[davetlv]

Re: question.

if hamas and thier fellow gun toting teenagers win even more, what happens to the accord from 47?? if they attain power and basically try to rid the region of jewish peoples, what does euro/US do?? are we bound to fight hamas and the violent side of the palestinain groups even though they might slowly become a legally represented group and begin to change te local laws? b/c then it will lead to outside forces trying to set the laws of the region.

sightless, i'm assuming the accord from 47 you are refering to is actually the UN Partition plan (info above)

As for what does the US or Europe do - well you have an a couple of options:-

1. Nothing

2. Negotiate and fun a state run by an organisation that is listed as a terrorist organisation. Basically its the same offering Al-queda a state of their own!

lastly, really for dave, how bad is this? annoying>frightful>nothing? just YOUR thoughts on the results. yet again, american media and even the BBC are failling.

See two above!

From the Hamas Charter

Part III - Strategies and Methods

Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari'a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, ?Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, ?Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators.

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: ?Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.? From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? ?And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.? Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: ?The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow.? (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

dave and yao and those ubre left and right people are what i wanna hear. no arguing, just what think. dont counter each other.

In typical Israeli fashion sightless i'm going to answer your question with a question - would you deal with Hamas knowing what they stand for?

[thesightless]

Re: question.

In typical Israeli fashion sightless i'm going to answer your question with a question - would you deal with Hamas knowing what they stand for?

i would sit and listen for awhile. no rhetoric , just listen, closed room, quiet stuff. but the minute a hamas gunner or bomber did something, thats where i think you send in the bigger dog into the fight. finally put the foot down and put it down hard. those little parades they hold , well, they become a target. think going after the roach nest, not jus thte roach that is seen on the floor.

i dont think we can ignore them as they are gaining representation and frankly, people ARE allowed to think whatever they deem, i call for the death of rappers, sounds dumb, but we are allowed to. the thing i worry about is if they go quiet for awhile, and an alliance amongst the islamic hardliners developes, and then they turn it up once they have a united front. they could easily lock out isreal pretty good. it would be easy for them to seal the borders and essentially preform a blockade and suffocate the region.

in the long run, i simply think that we will just have to deal with these states and thier hatred for isreal, its when they act upon it that violence will have to beget violence.

[thesightless]

Re: question.

just a weird comparison.

replace the religions with color. think of all the crap that happned in the USA. frankly. the boys in the south have every single right to hate black people, HOWEVER, they arent allowed to harm, in any way, them. from rights, to hiring practices, to freedom from violence. its just one of those things you have to deal with and respect (not in the admiring sense, but in the sense that it just wont change).

[Yao]

Re: question.

I've read that Hamas has already made a few withdrawing statements, like negociating is possible through 3rd parties and such. Typical for militant groups is that they become a bit more moderate in their approach once they get into politics, and the fact is that if Hamas takes itself seriously politically and wants to be taken seriously, it will have to talk. If it was all about fighting, it would've stayed underground, but I see some kind of Sinn Fein construction appearing here.

It will be intersting to see how this develops though.