here comes the sun.....

[thesightless]

and by sun i mean bomb mushroom cloud.

how long until the european papers as a whole publish the mohammed cartoon (which BTW is pretty funny) in defiance of the iranian, saudi and gaza gov't's?? these three governments have already removed thier diplomats in one way or another. amazing how one danish paper has started a movemenrt of sorts and now 4 more papers have published them, and some have written articles or editorials about how the islamic world is going backwards and they have to accept that God can be made fun of insulted.

weird.

anyone got thoughts on this one?

[krelm]

Re: here comes the sun.....

This was a major issue yesterday on another music-related board I post more often on. First of all, I'll say that I do find some of the cartoons pretty damn funny (especially the "we've run out of virgins" one). But I also think it was absolutely fucking irresponsible and unnecessarily disrespectful stupid to actually *publish* them. What can I say, my sense of humor is often in contradiction with my sense of pragmatism. Anyways, I'll copy the related part of the post I made to here...I hope it makes sense as it was somewhat directed as a response to a post made one the board on which I originally posted it. I'm also a fairly belligerent motherfucker in general, so pardon my language....

BTW, to answer your initial question, some of the cartoons were published in other European countries (Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain) today. I'm not particularly happy about it, but oh well....time to put some fucking popcorn in the oven and put my extra couch in the basement in case it needs to be turned into a bomb shelter.

Personally, I think this entire thing is fucking ridiculous. First of all, the Danish government has no need to apologize for what some right-wing paper publishes in the name of freedom of speech. They can publicly condemn it as disrespectful (might be a good face-saving mood, but little more), but it's not like they could have stopped it. Freedom of the press means FREEDOM of the press, and it is something I do firmly believe in.

But....

The people at that fucking paper who made the decision to publish it should have a king-sized durian shoved up their asses for being so fucking stupid and near-sighted. What the hell did they expect? Freedom of speech/press is important, IMO, but it comes with a certain level of responsibility and respect. This newspaper published a series of images which they had to have known would offend a *lot* of people, and they did it purely for the reason of making a point. Smart one, shitheads.

If muslims throughout the world were protesting against just this newspaper, then I guess it wouldn't be a big deal. But their wrath is being generalized to not only all Danish people, not only to all Scandanavians, but you've got militants attacking EU offices over this.

Wow, great move you brain-dead fuckwit editors. At least you made your point, eh?

As the general grade school rule goes, if you abuse your freedom, it's going to be taken away. If this incident does seriously lasting damage to Denmark or the EU (or closely preceeds terrorist attacks against Denmark), I could imagine seeing this broad sweeping freedom of the press being scaled back.

I guess another possibility is the old saying - "there is no such thing as bad publicity", and this newspaper has certainly gotten a lot of publicity from this thing. Stupid blunder or shrewdly calculated business move? Still just as much reason for them to have oversized rotten-smelling thorny tropical fruits shoved forcibly up their asses.

Now, I won't even touch on the validity of those Muslims who are pissed about it. I am next to impossible to offend (although I love to rant sometimes ) and don't exactly hold religion in high regard, so I'm probably not the most impartial person to comment on this. But I view things fairly pragmatically and thus find it unbelievably stupid that a newspaper would knowingly attack the primary religion of an entire race of people who are feeling pretty damned under attack these days.

This whole fiasco is ridiculously stupid that all I can say is....

link

Note: Since I originally write this, the Danish government DID condemn the publishing of the cartoons. Way to save face. Also, publications in several other large European countries (Germany, France, Spain, etc...) have jumped on the bandwagon and published some of the cartoons. This has the potential to blow up in a big and very unpleasant way....

[thesightless]

Re: here comes the sun.....

not me, im in the boat that they did a good thing for western society in some ways. they openly showed these people that we are a different society and that we dont have to be afraid of neanderthalic societies. it showed who we are what we are about, putting a united front up in ways. yes it was insulting, but it showed we wont regress and suddenly follow shiara. let them go nuts. maybe it will do something positive and force the region into isolationism and let their citizen realize how ass backwards things are at times.

[krelm]

Re: here comes the sun.....

not me, im in the boat that they did a good thing for western society in some ways. they openly showed these people that we are a different society and that we dont have to be afraid of neanderthalic societies. it showed who we are what we are about, putting a united front up in ways. yes it was insulting, but it showed we wont regress and suddenly follow shiara. let them go nuts. maybe it will do something positive and force the region into isolationism and let their citizen realize how ass backwards things are at times.

To a certain extent I do agree with you - at least ideologically. However, practically speaking it was a very potentially risky move that was initially done for no other reason than to prove a point - not the (very possibly valid) point you mention above, but it initially had purely to do with testing the bounds of free speech/censorship in the Danish media. There was no high-minded hope that by publishing these cartoons that they would lead to a chain of events eventually benefitting western society. They were just trying to stir up controversy in the Danish media. IMO, it was bad timing and sort of unnecessarily rubbing salt in a wound. And it wasn't just the militant/extremist/fundamentalist muslims they pissed off, but more or less angered a good part of the overall population. Just a bad idea in my book.

If it was only disrespectful to the extreme elements in the society, I wouldn't give it a second thought. But it was fairly insulting and disrespectful to even the more moderate muslims which I just don't see as being a good thing and will push the society more toward the extreme. I may find the religion archaic and absurd (my feeling on religion in general), but I'm not going to go slap the followers of it in the face all in one go, so to speak.

Just my thoughts.

[thesightless]

Re: here comes the sun.....

fuck no IMHO

we cant be afraid to do something because some disenfranchised society has a problem that the rest of world is progressing. here ill say it. fuck mohammed, he is a terrorist. did that statement change the world? NO.

does rome and italy start burning effigies of the imam's every time christianity is insulted? do americans take to the streets with loaded guns in kids' hands everytime someone burnt a flag or effigy of bush or clinton? nope. we are civilized. this just one of the many reasons i say the west needs to simply abandon the region, isolate it, and stop trading there. let the nations that have chosen to accept that the majority of the planet has evolved benifit from that thought. look at bahrain, it is a HAVEN of tourism because they realized that people arent living in burquas and cloaks throughout the world. India has stepped to the forefront of the planet in many ways. i guess i would try saying that this is more about their society than about a few paper editors to had the guts to say ""you know what? this is how we live, deal with it""

[Morgan]

Re: here comes the sun.....

another two faced response from a set of backward middle eastern countries.

[toasty]

Re: here comes the sun.....

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that, despite all of the attempts made by polticians to draw a distinction between terrorists and Muslims, a lot of people still view the two as equivalent. That's too bad, because my understanding is that Islam as it is practiced by the vast, vast majority of people is an entirely peaceful faith.

I do wonder if Muslims would be having the public image problem that led to cartoons like this if their leadership were more vocally critical of people who engage in violence in the name of Islam. I gather that it is difficult because it is by its nature a somewhat disjointed faith (i.e., there is not a singular Pope-like figure that purports to speak for the faith), but I would sure like to hear more influential Muslims out there railing on those who practice terrorism in Islam's name. It's not like Muslim's are completely silent on the topic, but if I were the Muslim community, I'd be considering launching a serious PR campaign to put some distance between my faith and terror; the absence of that, I think, leads people to perceive that relative silence as tacit approval of violent behavior being linked to Islam. Bush telling the world that Muslims are peaceful isn't the same as Islamic leaders going on the record and forcefully decrying violence.

[thesightless]

Re: here comes the sun.....

but I would sure like to hear more influential Muslims out there railing on those who practice terrorism in Islam's name. It's not like Muslim's are completely silent on the topic, but if I were the Muslim community, I'd be considering launching a serious PR campaign to put some distance between my faith and terror; the absence of that, I think, leads people to perceive that relative silence as tacit approval of violent behavior being linked to Islam.

sadly, thats the main thing. there arent any influential people doing it. even though they arent all terrorists, they are exactly pissed at the terrorist, a lot of them back what the terrorists try to do , not with money, but in ideals and sympathy. just look at gaza now. whole towns come out for suicide bomber parades........

a war of societies is coming sooner than we expect. europe will start it when they """defy""" the pressure of the middle east.

[thesightless]

Re: here comes the sun.....

here is one of the cartoons. not trying to pis anyone off here, but a lot of people have no clue to what they were. so here they are, make your own decision.

[neoee]

Re: here comes the sun.....

^^^ sorry if it offends anyone, but the first one is actually pretty funny.

[Hos]

Re: here comes the sun.....

the first one has nothing to do with this story. it's not even in danish. it's quite an old cartoon actually.

[Yao]

Re: here comes the sun.....

It's the one where the guy at heaven's gate is stopping the line of martyrs waiting to be left in, yelling "Stop, Stop, we are all out of virgins!!".

Pretty funny if I may say so, and it must take a really itchy character to get offended by that. I feel like they've simply finally found the stick to beat the dog, personally I'm thinking this might be good to get this thing setttled once and for all. Time to let them see where we stand.

Europe has been far too tolerant to foreign elements in it's midst, you can't really do much about the ones outside but I have always believed that there is a place for anyone here that is willing to accept out ways of life and standards, or at the very least puts up with them.
It seems there have been let in too many that do not, and either want to impose their faith upon us or were simply profiting of us. In both cases, I say: kick them back to where they came from, and keep the good ones here.

When I go to another country I abide by thier rules, I expect the some from people that visit mine.

[Bululu]

Re: here comes the sun.....

Yao I dont understand your way of thinking and how you see things man , the protests that has been happening I am with ( the peacful ones) not the one where stupid people burned down embassies ( but thats another story bec\ause I think this one is mainly political ) advice you to read the link that I provided in another post http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4685886.stm . What I wanted to come here is if you know that you will hurt someones feeling deeply especially that this people feel already let down and pointed at in every occasion, and I was reading one of your posts about being gay ( page 4 ) you said exactly **** If you are one to deny other people basic respectful treatment because of a difference in lifestyle or looks, you're not worth being treated like that yourself.****
So from there I am trying to explain to you that normal muslims asked for RESPECT thats all , drawing the prophets is probhibited in Islam and muslims asked you to be respectful towrds them not to stop your freedom of speech , and excuse me thoes stupid pictures have nothing funny about them because if it was any random muslims caricature and we see thousands of them everyday on the news papers no one woud have opened a mouth , but here you are touching to the foundation of Islam it self , so please some RESPECT is not hard to give .

PS" try and write about the non existance of the Holocaust in the european news papers and we will see where the freedom of speech will stop.Ahmed Njadi rings a bell ??

[Yao]

Re: here comes the sun.....

Asking for respect is fine Bululu, but in Islamic countries and regions a lot of insulting and hurting things are said (and cartoons made) about Christian people. You don't see people in Europe tearing down the embassies from those countries, do you? That is because we are used to people making use of the freedom of speech, and accepting a certain degree of the discomfort that can cause. The line usually is drawn where that freedom is actually used to instigate (orchestrated) violence against a group of people (like neo-nazism).

And since those cartoons were published in Denmark, I think that the Imam that tried to push this matter at all costs actually has nothing on them. He's acting like Denmark should not simply respect his faith, but actually his laws. If he likes living by shari'a laws so much, then he should move to Iran and be happy there and have some tea with Ahmadinejad.

In our culture the drawings of Mohamed are not perceived as disrespectful, but more as a way of voicing certain concerns: they were meant to make people think, as much as to make them laugh. Any other person or issue can be subject to this treatment is the artist thinks it should be brought to the people's attention. Humour is often the best way to either get attention or speak of with matters that would otherwise not be named.

[thesightless]

Re: here comes the sun.....

So from there I am trying to explain to you that normal muslims asked for RESPECT thats all , drawing the prophets is probhibited in Islam and muslims asked you to be respectful towrds them not to stop your freedom of speech , and excuse me thoes stupid pictures have nothing funny about them because if it was any random muslims caricature and we see thousands of them everyday on the news papers no one woud have opened a mouth , but here you are touching to the foundation of Islam it self , so please some RESPECT is not hard to give .

the heart of the arguement between the selected groups from each region lies here.
pardon the generalities, they are used for logic and simplicity.

you(and here i will generalize and side you with the muslim grouping) demand respect and dont like the prophet being satirized. when he was, by a group of 12 people under free speech, look what happened.

we(here is will basically lump up the so called ""non muslim"") demand free speech and repsect for life andequal rights.when someone is beheaded, killed, kidnapped, or treated like shit under shiara, we have never stormed an embassy, which houses innocent people who had nothing to do with it, call for the downfall of a nation, or killed. we dont riot when 500,000 people get together to denounce our free speech, ban our influence as it is called coprrupting, stare us in the face telling us you will work for peace while having underlings go out and bomb innocent civilians.

again. pardon the generalizations, they are only used to simplify the arguement down to two sides and show why the majority of people around here have a negative view on what is happening in beruit, bagdhad, islamabad and elsewhere. we arent killing people because elements of humaity force women to live in solitude, because gays are tradionally hung for thier love, becuase a raped woman who becomes pregnant is sentenced to death. however, because in an area of free speech, someone makes a joke out of some guy who may or may not have lived a few hundred years ago, thousands of people call for another holocost.........