Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

[toasty]

Looks like we're going to definitively find out sooner rather than later how these two would rule on the abortion issue. Roe v Wade is being directly challenged by a SD law outlawing abortion except to save the life of the mother.

This is the opportunity the religious right has been waiting for for years now -- it will be very telling to see how the Court rules when it inevitably makes its way up there.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20060306/ap_on_re_us/abortion_south_dakota_5

[sammwalk]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

so, i'm wondering if anybody else here feels the same as me...

to me, the issue surrounding abortion is a power struggle between fundamentalist religious people and rational scientific/medical people; abortion is a dividing issue that outlines the difference between these two camps.

whatever we think of abortion, i think it's important to reject social proposals propagated by individuals and groups that are religiously, not scientifically or humanistically, motivated. these groups may inadvertently support positive social reform or values, but we should be mindful of why. even if you are against abortion, you probably don't want it to be illegal because of the pressure from the religious right; you want it to be illegal because it is morally or scientifically wrong, regardless of religion.

so my point is that we don't want to help these guys, even if we agree with some of their views. we have to minimize their influence. (and by "these guys", i mean religious fundamentalists, not Alito and Roberts).

[KinKyJ]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

i think it's important to reject social proposals propagated by individuals and groups that are religiously, not scientifically or humanistically, motivated. these groups may inadvertently support positive social reform or values, but we should be mindful of why. even if you are against abortion, you probably don't want it to be illegal because of the pressure from the religious right; you want it to be illegal because it is morally or scientifically wrong, regardless of religion.

Now that's a dangerous thing to say imo. You're acting like proposals of religious groups are per definition bad or connected to a hidden agenda. Take Belgium at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century for example. Working conditions in the factories were terrible and it was a priest called Daens who climbed the barricades to demand more rights and better conditions. Thanks to the movement he started, child labour was abolished and laws were voted that ended the exploiting of the working class.

For me, everyone has the right to voice his opinion just as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I don't want to wake up one fine morning and find out people will ignore my point of view just because I happen to be a catholic...

Apart from that, I remember a quote from one of my professors when I was studying Law: "Chasse le surnaturel et il revient au galop." (Chase the supernatural and it will return galloping) He meant that if you push religion out of society and fill the gaps with science and humanism, people will run back to spirituality faster than you can say "secular". People just need something to believe in, guidance of some sort, something that helps them to make sense of all the shit happening in their lives...

Btw, I'd like to know what Mike Rounds' next step would be if his daugther was raped got pregnant tomorrow... Call the exorcist? [/sarcasm]

(FYI, I might be a roman-catholic, but I'm not religious at all. Hell, it's been more than a year since the last time I went to church and that was only for the funeral of my grandmother)

[sammwalk]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

Now that's a dangerous thing to say imo. You're acting like proposals of religious groups are per definition bad or connected to a hidden agenda. Take Belgium at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century for example. Working conditions in the factories were terrible and it was a priest called Daens who climbed the barricades to demand more rights and better conditions. Thanks to the movement he started, child labour was abolished and laws were voted that ended the exploiting of the working class.

For me, everyone has the right to voice his opinion just as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I don't want to wake up one fine morning and find out people will ignore my point of view just because I happen to be a catholic...

Apart from that, I remember a quote from one of my professors when I was studying Law: "Chasse le surnaturel et il revient au galop." (Chase the supernatural and it will return galloping) He meant that if you push religion out of society and fill the gaps with science and humanism, people will run back to spirituality faster than you can say "secular". People just need something to believe in, guidance of some sort, something that helps them to make sense of all the shit happening in their lives...

Btw, I'd like to know what Mike Rounds' next step would be if his daugther was raped got pregnant tomorrow... Call the exorcist? [/sarcasm]

(FYI, I might be a roman-catholic, but I'm not religious at all. Hell, it's been more than a year since the last time I went to church and that was only for the funeral of my grandmother)

well there is a big difference between spirituality and religion. and if you reread what i said i was saying that groups who are religiously motivated shouldn't gain power. if you're religious but have opinions that are motivated by clear thinking and not hocus-pocus superstitions, then that's fine.

i cannot and will not abide groups which base social and political perspective on religious rhetoric.

fine we can have whatever religion we want in this country; that's all great and everything, but we can't create socio-political policy based on religious supposition, which is, really, baseless.

the actions of religious leaders in positions of power, like the one you described, are motivated by justice or compassion, not by religious ideology, like in the case of abortion. fundamentalist religious opposition to abortion is not out of compassion (where is the compassion for the mother??) but is merely ideology rearing its head in the form that "life is sacred and life begins at conception, therefore abortion is wrong."

again, i don't care if someone is religious. i do have a problem with religious groups gaining power because they happen to have a position (like right to life) that some portion of the public agrees with. if you are against abortion because you have come to the conclusion that the psychological repercussions are too much, that it can be done in cases where the baby is almost fully developed, etc. that's fine, because that's a reasonable argument. however, if it's rooted in, "well, the bible says...", uh uh. no. you just can't let groups with these opinions to take root.

[thesightless]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

let.the.people.vote.state.by.state.

that way the will of the majority in a specific area can be done and only the minority can complain. too bad for them.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

well there is a big difference between spirituality and religion. and if you reread what i said i was saying that groups who are religiously motivated shouldn't gain power. if you're religious but have opinions that are motivated by clear thinking and not hocus-pocus superstitions, then that's fine.

i cannot and will not abide groups which base social and political perspective on religious rhetoric.

fine we can have whatever religion we want in this country; that's all great and everything, but we can't create socio-political policy based on religious supposition, which is, really, baseless.

the actions of religious leaders in positions of power, like the one you described, are motivated by justice or compassion, not by religious ideology, like in the case of abortion. fundamentalist religious opposition to abortion is not out of compassion (where is the compassion for the mother??) but is merely ideology rearing its head in the form that "life is sacred and life begins at conception, therefore abortion is wrong."

again, i don't care if someone is religious. i do have a problem with religious groups gaining power because they happen to have a position (like right to life) that some portion of the public agrees with. if you are against abortion because you have come to the conclusion that the psychological repercussions are too much, that it can be done in cases where the baby is almost fully developed, etc. that's fine, because that's a reasonable argument. however, if it's rooted in, "well, the bible says...", uh uh. no. you just can't let groups with these opinions to take root.

My point was just that justice and compassion are notions that are found in the Bible, the Koran, hell, in just about any religion. So when someone acts compasionate because his religion demands that, the better.

But I get your point too. It's just that a loudly screaming minority of hardliners fucks it up once again for the rest who mean well. See, it's not only the muslims who have screaming dimwits within their ranks...

@ thesightless: here in Belgium you can demand a public referendum (on city level only though) by gathering something like 5.000 signatures. Don't you guys have sth like that in the States?

[thesightless]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

not really.

and also, you cannot disregard that people hold religion important in thier lives just because we dont. it is a MAJOR historical factor everywhere (look up JFK). people have it ingrained in their minds, all the basic principles alter the paths we choose and the views we take.

can anyone here actually attest that there are ZERO atheists who are against abortion. im sure there are a few. eh

and if ya dont think religion affects the world. look east. towards the vacation spot called the middle east. it could be worse, we could be there.

like i said, let em vote state by state.

[miketpoto]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

I'm going to start raping nuns with virgin mary dildoes just for fun.

[thesightless]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

u really are sick. lol.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

I'm going to start raping nuns with virgin mary dildoes just for fun.

Mmmmmyeah, keep talking dirty like that... You sure know how to turn me on honey!

[neoee]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

I'm going to start raping nuns with virgin mary dildoes just for fun.

...I'm going to hell.

let.the.people.vote.state.by.state.

I'm not sure thats always the best solution, though I don't have a better one to offer. We are talking about individuals rights. If you don't agree with it fine, don't have an abortion but at the same time don't tell others what they can and can't do based on your moral beliefs (within bounds, ie. late term abortions, etc.)

If R v. W gets overturned you'll only force people underground. Some will try stupid things like self abortion. Others will abondon children in dumpsters. And suddenly RU 486 will become then next hot drug for your local drug dealer to carry. Or possibly the worst case scenerio, you'll have some kid grow up in a ghetto, totally neglected by his parents, who will be living off of welfare only to reproduce the same fate for the 5+ children he will go on to have, ad infinitum.

Actually here's a solution: Don't want people having abortions? You take the children then.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

Actually here's a solution: Don't want people having abortions? You take the children then.

And then what? Process them to hamburgers? Enjoy ur McUnwanted...

[miketpoto]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

And then what? Process them to hamburgers? Enjoy ur McUnwanted...

lol

[Yao]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

And then what? Process them to hamburgers? Enjoy ur McUnwanted...

I think he meant adoption...?

[neoee]

Re: Roberts, Alito, and Abortion

I think he meant adoption...?

Yes.