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djrichwoods. That all looks very nice on paper, and how it SHOULD be... but unfortunately, you are wrong, and it has been going on for years. This whole scenario didn't suddenly occur after 9/11.
I started to get upset until I realized the whole point of this is to make the new CIA appointee look bad before his hearings. Imo, they should concentrate soley on the terrorists making calls planning to do us harm.
Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake - Napoleon Bonaparte
Govt has no right?? Rich, heard of this little thing called The Patriot Act? What the govt is doing with your phone records that are VOLUNTARILY turned over, is legal.
And as far as the doubt that phone conversations have been recorded in the past as far back as the 70's...check out COINTELPRO.. an op that basically gave the FBI, CIA and other government agencies carte blanche to listen, record, poop on, anything they wanted under the guise of national security and in the 1970s. This isn't new. This isn't Bush.
I'm not saying this whole thing isn't the dogs balls, i'm just saying, of all things to be getting pissy over with Bush, this isn't one of them, he's just picking up where predecessors left off. We have plenty of bullshit to blame Bush for, but to suddenly pick this topic up is pretty ridiculous when it's been going on for decades. And as pointed out before, how timely by the press, right as an unpopular military genreal was nominated for the top spot in our government's civilian spy agency.
I still want to make this clear tho- the bush administration sucks.
The USA should bring all their troops home from everywhere and put them on the streets to prevent terrorism. Everytime we leave our homes we should have to go through a scan to show we don't have explosives on us. They should listen to all our phone calls and emails so that they can know of possible future terrorist activities. Also they should implant micro chips on us when we are young to prevent kidnapping so they know where we are at all times. We should also use this microchip and a finger print scan to pay for things to prevent credit card and bank fraud.
The USA should bring all their troops home from everywhere and put them on the streets to prevent terrorism. Everytime we leave our homes we should have to go through a scan to show we don't have explosives on us. They should listen to all our phone calls and emails so that they can know of possible future terrorist activities. Also they should implant micro chips on us when we are young to prevent kidnapping so they know where we are at all times. We should also use this microchip and a finger print scan to pay for things to prevent credit card and bank fraud.
Do you see a trend here??
Yeah, that LSD is really getting to you
What the world needs, is precogs (minority report)
I have to confess that I wasn't aware of COINTELPRO or ECHELON before you mentioned them. Having looked into them a bit, though, I still see a difference in that both of those programs, and probably most every surveillance program in history, start with the proposition that there is some reason to need to conduct surveillance on a particular person or group. Under the current program, however, data is being stored on everyone, regardless of whether there is a reason to do so -- and by "reason," I'm not even talking about probable cause, I'm talking about any inkling that there is a need to check up on someone. The government is officially watching you, and if it has a desire to do so -- whether it has anything to do with terrorism or not -- it can go back and identify every phone call you've made or received since September 2001.
If you're OK with that, well, go forward. Personally, no one in the government has done anything to earn that level of trust from me.
And by the way, I am equally pissed at my phone company if in fact they voluntarily provided this information. It is one thing to voluntarily provide information as part of an ongoing investigation, because the cooperation is ultimately based upon the recognition that it would have to provide that information in response to a subpoena. Just turning over that info carte blanche to the government without that check, though, is problematic, IMO.
If you're OK with that, well, go forward. Personally, no one in the government has done anything to earn that level of trust from me.
And by the way, I am equally pissed at my phone company if in fact they voluntarily provided this information. It is one thing to voluntarily provide information as part of an ongoing investigation, because the cooperation is ultimately based upon the recognition that it would have to provide that information in response to a subpoena. Just turning over that info carte blanche to the government without that check, though, is problematic, IMO.
Not sure why it is a big deal now. They have been handing records over for years. Think of the many criminal trials where phone records were used to put away bad people or prove the the wrong people were jailed. What privacy are you losing? So what if you don't want someone knowing that you have a 976 call fetish or if you call your friends 3 times a day.
Originally posted by Miroslav
It's not like he grabbed his balls and sucked his dick. It's not like he gave the Saudis the original copy of the Constitution to use as toilet paper. It's not like he gave away the secret recipe to the Colonel's chicken. .
what they know can always used against you, thats the problem with it. Even if it was ment anothyer way they can manipulate with such records to make you look bad and you are almost unable prove their wrong.
So fuck of, they have no right to know this..... but the government wants to get into or heads to see what makes us move and how they can control us as good as possible.
^ I agree. They don't have a right to know it, but it has gone on since Geroge Washington, and will continue to go on. Get used to it or move..oh wait, where are you going to move? Maybe the Middle East, or Europe, and then deal with MI5, KGB, MOSSAD...
It's happening everywhere, i'm not arguing wether it's bullshit or not, it is, but this media frenzy to lay the spying blame just to Bush is ridiculous.
I'm not keen on the stored data thing either. The more databases we have out there with stored private information on our citizens, the more we can segregate in the future- the more we can alienate, try not to hate Hallucinate, Dessegregate, Mediate, Alleviate, Try not to hate, Love your mate, Don't suffocate on your own hate, Designate your love as fate, A one world state, As human freight, The number eight, A white black state, A gentle trait, The broken crate, A heavy weight, Or just too late, Like pretty Kate has sex ornate, Now devastate, Appreciate, Depreciate, Fabricate, Emulate, The truth dilate, Special date, The animal we ate, Guilt debate, The edge serrate, A better rate, The youth irate, Deliberate, Fascinate, Deviate, Reinstate, Liberate, To moderate, Recreate, Or detonate, Annihiliate, Atomic fate, Mediate, Clear the state, Activate, Now radiate, A perfect state, Food on plate, Gravitate, The Earth's own weight, Designate your love as fate, At ninety-eight we all rotate, Hallucinate, Dessegregate, Mediate, Alleviate, Try not to hate, Love your mate, Don't suffocate on your own hate, Designate your love as fate, A one world state, As human freight, The number eight, A white black state, A gentle trait, The broken crate, A heavy weight, Or just too late, Like pretty Kate has sex ornate, Now devastate, Appreciate, Depreciate, Fabricate, Emulate, The truth dilate, Special date, The animals we ate, Guilt debate, The edge serrate, A better rate, The youth irate, Deliberate, Fascinate, Deviate, Reinstate, Liberate, Liberate, Liberate, Liberate.
Think of the many criminal trials where phone records were used to put away bad people or prove the the wrong people were jailed.
You've just made my point. These phone records were used in the criminal setting, where you have protections in place to prevent an abuse of power. Gather records from everyone, systematically, and the government can do whatever it pleases with them without the benefit of those protections.
So many of you seem to be arguing that the end justifies the means. That's a dangerous position to take, because once "because the President thinks it is a good idea" becomes sufficient justification to waive our 4th Amendment rights, or any rights for that matter, we're leaving behind the checks and balances that are the foundation of our system of government...
if they can do this with phone records who is to say they just can't take your money from the bank if they need it. I doubt that people's money is locked in their houses where it should be..
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