NSA Phone Call Database (NSA DO NOT CALL LIST)

[Jenks]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

Touche.

[runningman]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

its the tigers year this year

[Jenks]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

Too bad you're in the same division as the White Sox.

[djrichwoods]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

Voluntary on whose part? The phone companies? There's talk of a massive class action suit being organized regarding this.

And as far as Cointelpro is concerned, it was started in 1956 and was secret until 1971. Perhaps you should check Wikipedia. Congress held hearings in the 70's and in the end blasted the program as an affront to democratic society.

Echelon is still in use by the NSA and has historically always only been intended for international communications. Now, granted, the US and UK spied on the others' citizens and traded the info so, yes in a sense you are right... but it's clear that it's only been since 9/11 that Bush has allowed Echelon to openly surveil American Citizens. And every time it was shown that it might have captured communications between American Citizens and people overseas Congress has responded with tighter scrutiny. Let's remember that the FISA court was created in order to make it easier for the NSA to conduct their business within our borders.

Again, you have to understand... I think the government should be analyzing some domestic phone calls... let's not forgot that those 9/11 bastards were moving freely around the country... but I want them to GET A FUCKING WARRANT FIRST.

That's what pisses me off.

Oh and the Patriot Act is a frightening piece of legislation and I'm pissed every time I think about all the Democratic Senators who signed that piece of shit. Way to hand over our civil liberties assholes.

And I don't really think this has anything to do with Hayden, though it doesn't help his cause... He *WAS* the architect of what the NSA after all... this shit storm would have happened even if he wasn't under consideration to head up the CIA.

But what this whole thing is exposing is a concentrated accumulation of power for the Executive Branch at the expense of the other 2 branches. Let's remember that Bush not only bypassed FISA... he also only briefed 8 members of Congress and then told them that because of the highly classified nature of the program they couldn't discuss it with their staff, their committees... no one... so, in a sense, Bush bypassed Congress as well as he created a scenario where proper oversight couldn't be done.

Govt has no right?? Rich, heard of this little thing called The Patriot Act? What the govt is doing with your phone records that are VOLUNTARILY turned over, is legal.

And as far as the doubt that phone conversations have been recorded in the past as far back as the 70's...check out COINTELPRO.. an op that basically gave the FBI, CIA and other government agencies carte blanche to listen, record, poop on, anything they wanted under the guise of national security and in the 1970s. This isn't new. This isn't Bush.

I'm not saying this whole thing isn't the dogs balls, i'm just saying, of all things to be getting pissy over with Bush, this isn't one of them, he's just picking up where predecessors left off. We have plenty of bullshit to blame Bush for, but to suddenly pick this topic up is pretty ridiculous when it's been going on for decades. And as pointed out before, how timely by the press, right as an unpopular military genreal was nominated for the top spot in our government's civilian spy agency.

I still want to make this clear tho- the bush administration sucks.

[toasty]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

Again, you have to understand... I think the government should be analyzing some domestic phone calls... let's not forgot that those 9/11 bastards were moving freely around the country... but I want them to GET A FUCKING WARRANT FIRST.

Exactly. Is there a judge in this country that would deny a warrant to conduct surveillance on a suspected terrorist? It's so easy, and yet they ignore the warrant requirement. Either they are incredibly lazy, or they're up to something. If you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're just lazy, should we roll back the 4th amendment b/c Bush can't be bothered to run a warrant app by someone?

[neoee]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

From another site (sorry couldn't resist):

I've come up with a way to reduce?perhaps even eliminate?our dependence on foreign oil as an energy source.

As more and more civil liberties are trampled upon, faster and faster will the Founding Fathers spin in their respective graves.

If we attach magnets to each Founding Father, then wrap copper wire around each of them, we should have a potentially unlimited energy source. Well, at least until the Libertarians get elected in significant numbers?so yeah, come to think of it, it truly is unlimited.

The AC frequency, of course, might be unpredictable. In fact, I'd suspect it will be ever-increasing, which could create some technical issues to overcome. But we're smart people, I'm sure we can figure it out.

What do you all say? Shall we write up a grant proposal?

[speciale]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

Exactly. Is there a judge in this country that would deny a warrant to conduct surveillance on a suspected terrorist? It's so easy, and yet they ignore the warrant requirement. Either they are incredibly lazy, or they're up to something. If you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're just lazy, should we roll back the 4th amendment b/c Bush can't be bothered to run a warrant app by someone?

there have been judges in the past to deny the government No matter what, we need to look at the big picture. They are only phone records. Its no different than it was in 30 years ago. I don't like Bush either, but I would rather them track phone calls. Imagine what they can find. Its also better than them listening to our calls. For all of those here who disagree with the call records database, do me one favor. Take 1 day to study it and think about it. If after that day you still don't like it then I will buy you a beer.


















PS, for that beer, it is only available in FT Lauderdale

[toasty]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

there have been judges in the past to deny the government No matter what, we need to look at the big picture. They are only phone records. Its no different than it was in 30 years ago. I don't like Bush either, but I would rather them track phone calls. Imagine what they can find. Its also better than them listening to our calls. For all of those here who disagree with the call records database, do me one favor. Take 1 day to study it and think about it. If after that day you still don't like it then I will buy you a beer.

I've already had more than a day, and you owe me a beer.

The question is not whether or not I have a problem with Bush tracking my phone calls. The question is whether I think it is OK for one branch of the government to take the other two out of the equation by unilaterally deciding what is right and wrong.

The judiciary is removed by avoiding the warrant requirement. The legislature is removed as well -- even though a handful of Congress members were briefed, they were all sworn to secrecy, effectively removing any opportunity to complain. Besides, Bush doesn't look for input from the other branches or even cabinet-level offices -- he looks for validation of his ideology. That's dangerous.

Maybe you've got no problem with this. If you let this go, though, what do you do when Bush or another president takes it upon himself to unilaterally do something you disagree with? How do you bitch then? You've got to draw a line somewhere, and that line ought to be where the other two branches want it drawn. That's why we have checks and balances in the first place, FFS.

In closing, I would note that if in fact people have not problem with archiving the meta data for all phone calls, why not introduce legislation of introduce it by referendum and make it official? And don't give me this shit about, "Oh that will just help the terrorists," because any terrorist in this country who thinks that he can speak freely without worry of an actual phone tap is an idiot. The sad thing is that he'd probably be right, though, because the NSA seems to be too wrapped up in bullshit that attempts to find the proverbial needle in a haystack lately than doing any serious intelligence work.

[toasty]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

And by the way, speaking of the NSA, why is it that despite the fact that "bad intelligence" seems to be the universal scapegoat for everything from failing to stop 9/11 to invading the wrong fucking country, Hayden, the guy in charge of some of that bad intelligence, is getting a promotion to head of the CIA?

[Xessex]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

i smell shit

[speciale]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

And by the way, speaking of the NSA, why is it that despite the fact that "bad intelligence" seems to be the universal scapegoat for everything from failing to stop 9/11 to invading the wrong fucking country, Hayden, the guy in charge of some of that bad intelligence, is getting a promotion to head of the CIA?

I have no problem with the call tracking but one thing I agree with you is on the incompetence in our government. We need to clean house. Bush is just wasting another 4 years. What happened to the Rosevelts who spoke from the heart and spoke to fight for the people. I think we both agree on the matter that our government right now is a piece of shit. We need change and lets not forget that we the people are the government and we have the power to do what is right. If the people can unite in a non-party (no democrats and no republicans) together, we can bring this country back to receive the respect that it deserves.

[speciale]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

i smell shit

go flsuh your toilet

[djrichwoods]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

there have been judges in the past to deny the government No matter what, we need to look at the big picture. They are only phone records. Its no different than it was in 30 years ago. I don't like Bush either, but I would rather them track phone calls. Imagine what they can find. Its also better than them listening to our calls. For all of those here who disagree with the call records database, do me one favor. Take 1 day to study it and think about it. If after that day you still don't like it then I will buy you a beer.
PS, for that beer, it is only available in FT Lauderdale

And if a judge says no then that's that... that's called balance of powers which is what our constitution, our very way of government is based on...

What this administration has done is to basically say "We don't feel that we NEED Congress OR the Judiciary to have a say in what we're doing so we're just going to do it." And, I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Why do you think this Administration steadfastly refuses to commit this program to Judicial and Congressional oversight? Because they're pretty sure that MANY parts of it will be found to be not only unconstitutional but may subject members of the Administration to the possibility of Criminal charges.

Also, there's the whole problem of "What's next?" Think about it, the NYT article drops and Bush says that it's a very limited program that only focuses on a few people in the country and their calls to people overseas. So then more and more of the program comes to light and we're learning that it's much bigger than what they admitted to so they acknowledge that, yes, perhaps it's on little larger scope than we said before, but we are not datamining or targeting domestic calls or bothering with information regarding ordinary Americans.

So then USA Today basically calls Bullshit on all of that by reporting that not only are they bothering with ordinary Americans but they have obtained the call records from 3 of the biggest Telcom's in the country to build a huge Database from which to "find patterns". And so now they're saying "we can't comment on that" and Orrin Hatch all but admits that he's been briefed on that program but they claim that they're not listening...

Well... do we believe them? Gonzales sat in front of the Judiciary Oversight (what a joke) Committee and LIED HIS ASS OFF. He basically described the complete opposite of what we now know is going on. And you know what? It doesn't matter because that slime ball Specter, for all of his big talk about oversight and whatnot decides it's not appropriate to ask Gonzales to testify (edit here: ) UNDER OATH so there's no grounds for perjury.

If you are a registered democrat voter... or if your are eligible to vote and would vote democrat if registered, PLEASE REGISTER AND PLEASE VOTE this November. Of course if you're Republican I urge you to register and vote as well (as that's how this country works) but given that I'm a democrat I have to play favorites.

The only hope for stopping this march towards an Imperial Presidency is by eliminating Republican rule in Congress and gaining subpeona power in order to start calling this Administration to task for all the shit it's done over the last 5 years.

[miketpoto]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

Rich woods is my personal diety.... I'm starting a stalker club.... that way if there is a demonstration or a march we can join in really quick-like.... cuz we'd already be in the bushes clipping letters out of magazines and listening to his mixes on our ipods...

[Morgan]

Re: NSA Phone Call Database

Jenks is right about Elechlon, been around since just after WW2, an agreement between USA, UK, Austrlia and NZ. All the data collected is sent to the US where it's checked and if the US decides it's relervant then it;s returned to the country of origin. Shoddy imo, but what can you do.

As for the patriot act, it's only a modification of exsisting laws. If you look deeply into some of the FEMA legisation, if a state of emergency if delaclared then your goverment can intetern you in a camp, confistate all your assets etc. Basically the patriot act has done is clarfiy the electronic aspect and made it easier to enact legisation without needing to declare a state of emergency.

The USA is nearly a police state imo.