Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

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  • KinKyJ
    Platinum Poser
    • Jun 2004
    • 13438

    Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

    So we all live in "the free world" right? Meaning that where we live concepts like freedom of speech, civil liberties and equality are considered obvious. Especially the equality.

    Where I live, factors like ethnicity, religion, color of skin, etc... Are (hardly) taken into account. Europeans generally consider religion a private matter and won't bother others with it. I don't care if I'm talking to a German, Italian or American as for me nationality doesn't mean a thing (I even consider myself a European rather than a Belgian)... I don't care if the guy I'm working or drinking a beer with is caucasian, asian, black or whatever... I judge people by their personality and merrits...

    By now most of you will be yawning that I'm stating the obvious. Well, it isn't that obvious at all... And I've learnt that the hard way.

    As everybody knows, my girlfriend is an Albanian living in Macedonia. Whereas at first I thought our different backgrounds could become a source for frictions between us, it turned out to be an enrichment of both our lives. Our relationship is based on mutual trust and above all RESPECT for our differences (which have turned out to be quite minimal). I've read up on the islam (she's muslim) and she got to know more about catholocism. I'm learning Albanian, she's learning Dutch... And so on, and so on... Neither of us wants the other one to change in order to be "more compatible."

    By now most of you will be yawning that this the best way to make a mixed relationship work. So what's my problem? Our environments are the problem.

    My parents were a bit sceptical about it all because Albanians have a bad image here (organized crime, etc...), but they approved after a few months when they saw that Erzina made me happier than I've ever been before. When the rest of my family heard the news, I got a lot of ignorant questions and remarks about her being Albanian and above all about her being a muslima ("Does she wear a burka and stick her ass in the air five times a day to pray?"...). I was utterly amazed that people whom I considered open minded and educated reacted in such a retarded way. But hey opinions are like asses: everybody has one.

    Ok, the first reactions of my family were pretty insulting and disrecpectful, but it all slided off me. Erzina on the other hand has more serious shit to deal with...

    When she told her parents in February (after being together for 7 months) she had met someone, they were very happy. But when she said "It's not an Albanian" all hell broke lose. Her mom went completely ballistic and her dad gave her a simple choice: when she graduates next year, she'll have to make a choice between breaking up with me or breaking contact with her parents and family. Why such a harsh reaction?

    1) Albanians stick together. It's absolutely "not done" for an Albanian to get involved with someone who's not.
    2) I'm not a muslim

    When she kept argueing that I treat her better and with more respect than any Albanian guy up until now has treated her, the reply was quite simple: "Maybe he is a perfect guy who loves you deeply, respects you, treats you with diginity and cares about you, but that doesn't matter. Even if he's the perfect husband for you, there's a red line you can't cross. Some rules can never be broken..."

    When Erzina told me what had happened, I was obviously deeply insulted and decided that I would do anything to prove to her parents that I'm "worthy" to have their daughter as partner. I was (and still am) even prepared to convert to islam if it was such a big deal that I'm a (non practicing) catholic. When her dad heard that, he just replied that I couldn't be serious, that Erzina believed in fairy tales. Anyway, even if I would convert, it wouldn't make them change their minds. I'm not an Albanian.

    We're together for almost a year now and every time I go to Macedonia, I feel like a thief in the night. We have to make up excuses and lies in order to spend time together and obviously I haven't met her parents yet as they don't even want to talk to me.

    I don't have to tell you that this conflicts big time with my personal pride as I think I only have reasons to be proud instead of be ashamed. And even though they have done nothing than disrespect me, I keep on respecting their opinion even though I don't agree with it. For Erzina this stings a lot too since her parents act like I don't exist, pretend that "everything is business as usual" and try to prevent us from seeing/contacting each other as much as possible.

    It's hard on the both of us moreover because we're 2.500 km apart and see each other only once every two months in the flesh. But the positive factor is that we're both willing to go all the way. It's in our personality not to give up when we have our mind set on something. And this is something her parents still underestimate...

    A long story to point out that we should consider ourselves very lucky to live in a society which hold values like freedom and equality as sacred. These values are too often taken for granted, but I'm telling ya: when you're denied of them, you realise how important they are...
  • shosh
    Banned
    • Jun 2004
    • 4668

    #2
    Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

    poor you

    solution: convert and seek albanian citizenship!

    seriously though that blows. you might say that in europe ppl dont care about differences, but that applies only to the western part of europe where civil wars, segregation, racism are way in the past. in eastern/central europe the mindsets are so far behind that those things are so very important. religion, nationality, and/or race are critical and influence everything in people's lives starting with social activities, politics, and so on... on top of that all those ppl are so ignorant, hard headed, and stuck in their ways that they will never accept change, thats why countries like macedona, albania, bulgaria, romania are still far behind the western european countries.

    drink up and have some webcam sex with your gf. it will make you feel better, oakie

    you look sad btw

    Comment

    • Duff McKagin
      Gold Gabber
      • Sep 2004
      • 690

      #3
      Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

      man that sucks, sounds like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. i'm sure you already feel this way, but don't give up on it. something will work out in the end if it was meant to be.
      Fly? Yes. Land? No!

      Comment

      • thesightless
        Someone will marry me. Hell Yeah!
        • Jun 2004
        • 13567

        #4
        Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

        jan. ill say this because i learned it a long time ago.. and you can relate it to the lady.

        being blood doesnt make you family, and to be a family doesnt require blood.

        if you two truly love each other, than tough shit for anyone else. the only people who you have to answer to are
        1. yourself
        2. your wife/husband/partner
        3. whatever god you choose to beleive in or not
        4. the guy who signs your paycheck.

        if someone from your bloodline cannot respect you under certain conditions, then the term family doesnt apply. find someone who you love and hold on to them. never let go.
        your life is an occasion, rise to it.

        Join My Chant. new mix. april 09. dirty fuck house.
        download that. deep shit listed there

        my dick is its own superhero.

        Comment

        • tsesan
          Getting Somewhere
          • Mar 2006
          • 139

          #5
          Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

          Classic case of backward parents... If you two think you are right for each other (aka marriage material), I would ask her to pack her bags and go live with you away from her family's scrutiny. It's your lives, not her parent's. Of course, there will be consequences and it's easier said than done. But parents sometimes need to be traumatized a little to understand. My parents are quite backwards at times, but I've learnt to train them well to accept a changing world.

          Comment

          • alexfish333
            Gold Gabber
            • Jul 2004
            • 966

            #6
            Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

            Originally posted by thesightless
            jan. ill say this because i learned it a long time ago.. and you can relate it to the lady.

            being blood doesnt make you family, and to be a family doesnt require blood.

            if you two truly love each other, than tough shit for anyone else. the only people who you have to answer to are
            1. yourself
            2. your wife/husband/partner
            3. whatever god you choose to beleive in or not
            4. the guy who signs your paycheck.

            if someone from your bloodline cannot respect you under certain conditions, then the term family doesnt apply. find someone who you love and hold on to them. never let go.

            Sightless U R a true "dichotomy"

            There are the brash and blaringly insensitive things you say in most of the political forums or in general Yakkity yak

            And then there's this melodramadic shit

            -which, for the record, I am far more into than the former aspect of your "dichotomous" personality

            Holosound@Vertigo in Costa Rica Streaming Video and Audio http://livestream.com/urbanettv/vide...8-c5911280cf91




            Part of the weekend never dies...

            Comment

            • santo26
              Addiction started
              • Jun 2004
              • 383

              #7
              Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

              Is a peaty but the important think is you, just you, if you are happy do not think in other things,

              Comment

              • speciale
                Are you Kidding me??
                • Dec 2005
                • 3728

                #8
                Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                Originally posted by thesightless
                jan. ill say this because i learned it a long time ago.. and you can relate it to the lady.

                being blood doesnt make you family, and to be a family doesnt require blood.

                if you two truly love each other, than tough shit for anyone else. the only people who you have to answer to are
                1. yourself
                2. your wife/husband/partner
                3. whatever god you choose to beleive in or not
                4. the guy who signs your paycheck.

                if someone from your bloodline cannot respect you under certain conditions, then the term family doesnt apply. find someone who you love and hold on to them. never let go.
                its scary because I agree with you here. Blood means shit. You don't have to be blood to be family. As for her situation, its got to be tough having your parents say, you date him, then GTFO. She is in a bad situation as well. You can't simply tell her what to do.

                All in all, I hope things work out and enjoy the time you spend together. Every second.
                Originally posted by Miroslav
                It's not like he grabbed his balls and sucked his dick. It's not like he gave the Saudis the original copy of the Constitution to use as toilet paper. It's not like he gave away the secret recipe to the Colonel's chicken. .
                No Soup for You

                Comment

                • thesightless
                  Someone will marry me. Hell Yeah!
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 13567

                  #9
                  Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                  alex, im still gonna punch you. and of course im insensitive. i hate people in general. and i love stereotypes
                  your life is an occasion, rise to it.

                  Join My Chant. new mix. april 09. dirty fuck house.
                  download that. deep shit listed there

                  my dick is its own superhero.

                  Comment

                  • MJDub
                    Are you Kidding me??
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 2765

                    #10
                    Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                    Originally posted by thesightless
                    jan. ill say this because i learned it a long time ago.. and you can relate it to the lady.

                    being blood doesnt make you family, and to be a family doesnt require blood.

                    if you two truly love each other, than tough shit for anyone else. the only people who you have to answer to are
                    1. yourself
                    2. your wife/husband/partner
                    3. whatever god you choose to beleive in or not
                    4. the guy who signs your paycheck.

                    if someone from your bloodline cannot respect you under certain conditions, then the term family doesnt apply. find someone who you love and hold on to them. never let go.


                    Indeed. Fuck blood. I have extended family living in north Alabama (unfortunately) and they're the same backwards way that these parents are. They think that inter-racial couples are "not human" and other stupid shit like that. Fuck blood.
                    http://www.myspace.com/mjdubmusic

                    You can't have manslaughter without laughter.

                    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl."

                    Comment

                    • KinKyJ
                      Platinum Poser
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 13438

                      #11
                      Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                      Originally posted by shosh
                      poor you

                      solution: convert and seek albanian citizenship!

                      seriously though that blows. you might say that in europe ppl dont care about differences, but that applies only to the western part of europe where civil wars, segregation, racism are way in the past. in eastern/central europe the mindsets are so far behind that those things are so very important. religion, nationality, and/or race are critical and influence everything in people's lives starting with social activities, politics, and so on... on top of that all those ppl are so ignorant, hard headed, and stuck in their ways that they will never accept change, thats why countries like macedona, albania, bulgaria, romania are still far behind the western european countries.

                      drink up and have some webcam sex with your gf. it will make you feel better, oakie
                      Converting: at first I didn't think it was a big deal. I mean, I live by a set of norms and values, not by the teachings in a book. When I read up on islam, I found out that actually a lot of muslim life principles are compatible or even similar to mine. So to me it wasn't a biggie to from one church to another. BUT when I started to think it over, there are a few reasons why I shouldn't convert at all:
                      • like I said, our relationship is based on mutual respect. Converting to islam because she's muslim goes against that principle (in fact, this is the reason Erzina doesn't want me to convert)
                      • if I convert, it would be only for her parents. This is insulting both to me (what? I'm not good enough because I call my god by a different name?) as to the islam itself (I'm not converting out of free will)
                      • although I'm not very religious, my roots and the traditions from earlier generations are something I find very important. Not that it makes me better than someone else, nor that it differentiates me from others, it's just respect for those who came before you. How respectful would it be to leave all that behind just to please other people?
                      • converting solves a problem, but it's no guarantee for being accepted...
                      Albanian citizenship: don't take this personal shosh, it's not directed at you at all, but although it makes sense, sticking feathers up your ass doesn't make you a chicken. And once again: I respect their traditions and particularities, why can't they respect mine? Why should I give up a part of my identity? I am Jan and whatever it says on my ID, I'll still be the same person.

                      No really, I respect their history, traditions, values and so on. The least they can do is respect mine.

                      As for what you say on the mentality in West vs Eastern Europe: you're completely right. The reason why we are so tollerant and (in general) open minded, is because we've had two world wars which taught us that nothing good comes from nationalism and racism. The strange thing however is that
                      • Albanians are the only European people in a reagion full of slavic people. This is the reason that they've been suppressed for more than 300 years already (in Macedonia for instance things have improved a lot for the Albanian minority (30%), but they're still treated like second rank citizens).
                      • the Balkan wars weren't about money, territory or power, but about ethnicity and nationalism. And trust me, the scars people are carrying because of what happened during the war (ethnic cleansing, the Serbian army wiping out entire towns of unarmed civilians, ...) are still very deep. For instance, the only thing Erzina wants to tell me about what happened was that she was deported over the border to Kosova with the barrel of a machinegun pressed against her head.
                      When you consider the above it makes no sense at all to me why I'm running into a wall of ethnic prejudices. Hello, I'm Belgian, our people never did anything wrong to the Albanians. On the contrary, Belgian F16's (amongst other NATO jets) bombed the shit out of the Serbs in order to support the UCK (Albanian Liberation Army) and there are still Belgian KFOR plattoons active in Kosova to protect the Kosovarian Albanians from possible ethnic violence and to help rebuild schools, hospitals and public infrastructure. So yeah, when an Albanian treats me like I'm less than him, it pisses me off royally...

                      However, it's a fact that there's a big difference in mentality between the old generations and the Balkan youth. The latter has a more open mind and are very Western orientated in their values and opinions. Yes I got tested and "interrogated" by Erzina's friends, but I've never been welcomed so warmly in a closed group. What's more: we got so close that I almost consider them as "family". I don't know any Belgian who would take a bullet for me, but I do know a few Albanians who would. Would that be possible when there was an enormous ethical and cultural gap between us? Don't think so... They were even amazed that we were so alike (and I must admit, I was too).

                      @ Sean: couldn't have said it better bro. That was spot on! It's one of the conclusions I'm slowly coming to: when her parents prioritize the "Albanians stick with Albanians" over the hapiness of their own daughter, it's not me who's unworthy of their daughter, it them being unworthy of being her parents.

                      Same goes for my own family. The dimwit remarks they made don't hurt me. I stopped caring what anybody thinks about Erzina when I found out what I really felt for her. But that last thing has another consequence too: whether it would be my mom and dad or someone from the rest of the family, whoever goes against our relationship ceases to be related to me. That's why it sucks that the problem is at her side: if it were my parents, they wouldn't even have the chance to set an ultimatum. I'd be more than happy to take that decission for them as imo the priority of any parent should be the hapiness of their children and not their own dogmas and pride.

                      I understand that their daughter falling in love with a Belgian isn't exactly what they had hoped for, but hey: what fate/god brings together is not for man to judge.

                      @ tsesan: Erzina packing her bags and moving away from her family is what will happen when her parents won't bend. I won't have to ask that as the other day she was saying that she was fed up with the way her family acts and that she wanted to take off. It would surely make things easier for us, but it's the scenario I'm trying to avoid. I think family is important and I'd find it a damn shame that they would give up Erzina for a shit reason like that.

                      One thing struck me in your post though: "parents sometimes need to be traumatized a little to understand." I was talking to a (muslim) friend here and he said the same thing: fuck her family and let her come over. That way her family will realise what they've given up and eventually they will come around. Maybe that's a scenario worth taking into account when things get really bad.

                      I know it looks like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, but that isn't entirely true. I've made my choice and I'm sticking to it, no matter what. The same goes for Erzina. And the fact of the matter is, the more they go against us, the closer they bring us together.

                      In the beginning of this week they found out that we were planning to spend our holiday together in Tivat, Montenegro. When they asked her for an honest answer, she said I was indeed going to be there. Result: they won't let her go, which would mean that we weren't going to see each other for (in total) 5 to 6 months. Up until yesterday we were both crushed by that reality, but in the mean time we got our shit together again and started looking for solutions. We've found a way to spend at least a few days together and even came up with a waterproof plan to get her a visum and a reason to come to Belgium in the Fall.

                      To tell ya the truth, the way Erzina reacts to this shit makes me respect her even more. Any other 21-year-old girl would've chickened out long before instead of relentlessly stand up and fight for what she believes in... I know I didn't have the strength to do that when I was her age...

                      As a final note: all of the above seems very negative and problematic. But there still is a bright side to it all: if we survive these incredible amounts of shit as a couple (and I'm sure we will), there will be nothing that could ever destroy our relationship. And to me that's something of great value.

                      So yeah, if those ignorants want a war, they're getting one. And they'd better be prepared and brace themselves cuz the only thing that will stop me from spending my life with her is a bullet. That might sound like melodramatic overkill to some, but for the first time in my life I believe in something like never before. We all gotta die some day. I rather be remembered as someone who died for something than someone who died because of something...




                      Man, I've just realised that I've never wrote posts that were this long. Ah well, I guess it just reflects the importance I attach to it. Feels actually quite good to share it with you guys. Not that I'm seeking support or advice (we've gotta do this by ourselves), but the feedback is really more valuable than I had expected. Never underestimate the power of [ms]

                      Comment

                      • alexfish333
                        Gold Gabber
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 966

                        #12
                        Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                        One thing I feel like noting is that it's easy to say "fuck blood" because in reality it's like fuck them for not being all down with love and whatnot but it's important to remember she did grow up with these people and they probably have more of an influence then you would think over her. I'm not suggesting you change course at all because I think you two should be together just understand that even if she says it's simple to choose you-it's probably really not

                        I lost a girlfriend to parents that hated the fact that I wanted to be a DJ and like three months before it happened I got a little cocky with it and decided to not sweat it and then they moved in with some very influential incentives and ultimately it caused us to break up

                        I shouldn't have been with her because she wasn't ready to fight for me in the way it seems like your girl is-but do realize how fucked this has got to be for her
                        Holosound@Vertigo in Costa Rica Streaming Video and Audio http://livestream.com/urbanettv/vide...8-c5911280cf91




                        Part of the weekend never dies...

                        Comment

                        • anonin
                          Juvenile Delinquent
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 2347

                          #13
                          Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                          Originally posted by KinKyJ
                          So we all live in "the free world" right? Meaning that where we live concepts like freedom of speech, civil liberties and equality are considered obvious. Especially the equality.

                          Where I live, factors like ethnicity, religion, color of skin, etc... Are (hardly) taken into account. Europeans generally consider religion a private matter and won't bother others with it. I don't care if I'm talking to a German, Italian or American as for me nationality doesn't mean a thing (I even consider myself a European rather than a Belgian)... I don't care if the guy I'm working or drinking a beer with is caucasian, asian, black or whatever... I judge people by their personality and merrits...

                          By now most of you will be yawning that I'm stating the obvious. Well, it isn't that obvious at all... And I've learnt that the hard way.

                          As everybody knows, my girlfriend is an Albanian living in Macedonia. Whereas at first I thought our different backgrounds could become a source for frictions between us, it turned out to be an enrichment of both our lives. Our relationship is based on mutual trust and above all RESPECT for our differences (which have turned out to be quite minimal). I've read up on the islam (she's muslim) and she got to know more about catholocism. I'm learning Albanian, she's learning Dutch... And so on, and so on... Neither of us wants the other one to change in order to be "more compatible."

                          By now most of you will be yawning that this the best way to make a mixed relationship work. So what's my problem? Our environments are the problem.

                          My parents were a bit sceptical about it all because Albanians have a bad image here (organized crime, etc...), but they approved after a few months when they saw that Erzina made me happier than I've ever been before. When the rest of my family heard the news, I got a lot of ignorant questions and remarks about her being Albanian and above all about her being a muslima ("Does she wear a burka and stick her ass in the air five times a day to pray?"...). I was utterly amazed that people whom I considered open minded and educated reacted in such a retarded way. But hey opinions are like asses: everybody has one.

                          Ok, the first reactions of my family were pretty insulting and disrecpectful, but it all slided off me. Erzina on the other hand has more serious shit to deal with...

                          When she told her parents in February (after being together for 7 months) she had met someone, they were very happy. But when she said "It's not an Albanian" all hell broke lose. Her mom went completely ballistic and her dad gave her a simple choice: when she graduates next year, she'll have to make a choice between breaking up with me or breaking contact with her parents and family. Why such a harsh reaction?

                          1) Albanians stick together. It's absolutely "not done" for an Albanian to get involved with someone who's not.
                          2) I'm not a muslim

                          When she kept argueing that I treat her better and with more respect than any Albanian guy up until now has treated her, the reply was quite simple: "Maybe he is a perfect guy who loves you deeply, respects you, treats you with diginity and cares about you, but that doesn't matter. Even if he's the perfect husband for you, there's a red line you can't cross. Some rules can never be broken..."

                          When Erzina told me what had happened, I was obviously deeply insulted and decided that I would do anything to prove to her parents that I'm "worthy" to have their daughter as partner. I was (and still am) even prepared to convert to islam if it was such a big deal that I'm a (non practicing) catholic. When her dad heard that, he just replied that I couldn't be serious, that Erzina believed in fairy tales. Anyway, even if I would convert, it wouldn't make them change their minds. I'm not an Albanian.

                          We're together for almost a year now and every time I go to Macedonia, I feel like a thief in the night. We have to make up excuses and lies in order to spend time together and obviously I haven't met her parents yet as they don't even want to talk to me.

                          I don't have to tell you that this conflicts big time with my personal pride as I think I only have reasons to be proud instead of be ashamed. And even though they have done nothing than disrespect me, I keep on respecting their opinion even though I don't agree with it. For Erzina this stings a lot too since her parents act like I don't exist, pretend that "everything is business as usual" and try to prevent us from seeing/contacting each other as much as possible.

                          It's hard on the both of us moreover because we're 2.500 km apart and see each other only once every two months in the flesh. But the positive factor is that we're both willing to go all the way. It's in our personality not to give up when we have our mind set on something. And this is something her parents still underestimate...

                          A long story to point out that we should consider ourselves very lucky to live in a society which hold values like freedom and equality as sacred. These values are too often taken for granted, but I'm telling ya: when you're denied of them, you realise how important they are...

                          damn knky J! tl:dr!!!!!

                          Comment

                          • shosh
                            Banned
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 4668

                            #14
                            Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                            kinky: the things i said about converting were just talk. i know converting or even getting citizenship most likely wouldnt change anything between you and her parents.

                            @ albanians... im originally from romania, "a latin country in a slavic sea," so i know a bit about what you're talking about cheers and good luck. and like i said... this calls for a good session of you know what

                            Comment

                            • MJDub
                              Are you Kidding me??
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 2765

                              #15
                              Re: Freedom and equality aren't obvious at all

                              Originally posted by KinKyJ
                              In the beginning of this week they found out that we were planning to spend our holiday together in Tivat, Montenegro. When they asked her for an honest answer, she said I was indeed going to be there. Result: they won't let her go, which would mean that we weren't going to see each other for (in total) 5 to 6 months. Up until yesterday we were both crushed by that reality, but in the mean time we got our shit together again and started looking for solutions.
                              One solution: do a little kissing up to her parents with your fist.

                              But seriously, I hope things ultimately work out for you two.
                              http://www.myspace.com/mjdubmusic

                              You can't have manslaughter without laughter.

                              "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl."

                              Comment

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