Thoughts re torture

[toasty]

Saw on the news that one of the recently captured (and killed) US solidiers was laid to rest this morning in Brownsville, TX, got me thinking a bit.

Were it not for what happened to the prisoners at Abu Gr'haib (sp) and Guantanamo Bay, do you think those two solidiers would have still been tortured as they were? I think the answer is probably yes.

What happened as a result of the prisoner mistreatment/torture (whatever you want to call it) at those prisons did, though, was eliminate our ability to claim some sort of moral outrage at the torturing of solidiers. That could have been a rallying cry to get the rest of the world engaged again. Instead, the news was, "There is clear evidence that the two men were brutally tortured before being killed. Back to you, Miles."

A couple years ago, people would have been pissed. Now, the reaction is more muted, more like, "Well, that was to be expected."

Damn shame, imo.

[Kamal]

Re: Thoughts re torture

seemed like a 3 way handshake (iirc), they beheaded that reported and put vids out (for which they need to be nuked), it followed by Abu Gharib and an expected retaliation with what they did to these soldiers.

Torture is the most inhumane thing I can personally comprehend, heck a closed fisted strike a couple of times is one thing, but to decapitate live / blindfolded people is something these extremist pricks are taking to a new level.

They seriously need to call the Orkin Man equivalent of terrorists and wipe them off the face of humanity.

[thesightless]

Re: Thoughts re torture

we need guns. lots of guns.

and yes, sometimes you need to realize that maybe the emporer of china was right that using violence to instill control on ppl might be neccessary to acheive peace in the end. the coalition troops should just go door to door and arrest/kill anyone associated with the finding of any of the following. missle launcher, bomb materials, inordinant amounts of fertilizer considering its a fucking desert, any terror related materials, and anyone owning a jihad headband like the suicide bombers wear during their runs.

they are only going to continue breeding pain on innocents, so go get the hive now before the house is overwhelmed.

[BSully828]

Re: Thoughts re torture

A couple years ago, people would have been pissed. Now, the reaction is more muted, more like, "Well, that was to be expected."

A couple of years ago the USS Cole was bombed. Unprovoked, unexpected and 90% of the US population was uninterested. A couple of years ago a car bomb went off in the garage of the World Trade Center. Unprovoked, unexpected and 90% of the US population was uninterested.

American citizens were attacked and killed completely by surprised and most of their own neighbors couldn't have cared less. Hardly anyone was pissed, instead they were more concerned with who the next American Idol would be rather than some rogue nation laying waste to our own people.

Does this justify stacking up naked POW's like a pyramid ? Fuck no. But is that equal to human mutilation? Is flushing a holy text down the toilet congruent to decapitation? Like Kamal correctly said, there is a tit-for-tat mentality behind all this - the only problem is that the two sides involved have a very different definition for the phrase "tit for tat".

I agree, there is no justifiction behind what US soldiers at those prison camps did. And the fact that they brought a CAMERA to the festivities shows that they are dumb as f-u-c-k-i-n-g shit. Here's the difference though: the actions of those US soldiers were the exception to our rule, and the actions of those terrorists were the adherence to their rule.

For the most part those soldiers were soundly battered by the court public opinion and were made an example of by the UCMJ. Their actions decried by even the most fervent supporters of Bush Co. and were posterized as proof of the US as Evil Empire the by leftists worldwide. In the end those involved were tared, feathered and sent on the quickest rail out of town.

But what was the reaction to the actions of the terrorists? When you saw the reports of Matthew Berg, what did you think? Complete surprise or "that was to be expected."?

How about those two captured soldiers? What was your initial reaction? Did you believe that, upon being captured, they would be sent to some prison camp to be held without trial, visited by the Red Cross, and represented by some international Civil Liberties coalition until due process?

Or did you think, "Shit, they are fucked."?

I'm not a betting man, but I'd lay down real money that everyone reading this thought #2. So what is really "to be expected"?

It is easy to hold oneself to a higher standard when debating moral acts across an internet message board from the comfort of your own home. But when faced with the all-too-real events of wartime horror, the situation grays just a bit. And I don't aim this at you Toasty - you've established yourself to be an intelligent, rational figure here. But I fail, and have failed, to see the correlation between the acts of a few stupidass Privates on a powertrip to the terrible hostage slaughters at the hands of terrorists.

Again - what those dumb fucks did at GitMo or Abu Gr'aib (sic) is inexcusable, but to say we've lost some sort of moral foothold because of that either:
a.) raises the foolish acts of a few in the name of humiliation to the level of murder
or
b.) lowers the heinous act of torture to the level of mere degradation.

In a perfect world, the word torture would have no place in our vocabulary. But - and I hope I'm not rocking anyone's foundation here - this is far from a perfect world. I say that not to justify anything we're discussing here, but to delineate the two sides of the argument.

(I know I've been absent from the Political forum for a while - hopefully my $.02 is still welcome here.)

[KinKyJ]

Re: Thoughts re torture

^^^ couldn't agree more with that.

What worries me is that people either just don't care anymore or start acting very radical/violent. That's the mentality that got Bush the green light for invading Iraq in the first place.

[thesightless]

Re: Thoughts re torture

-not me, and i would be lying if i said i were completely against it. but in times maybe a bullet in the knee might get some intel that is more valueable than the criminal sitting in the chair. ppl will always reply with ""but he could be innocent"", yes he could be, or he could be in the inform of bin ladens location, or a storehouse of explosives that are used daily, sometimes hourly. or maybe the location of some hostages. and if he does, and most of the time, mlitary intel will have a very good idea of whether he does or not. if he doesnt, leave him, and if he does, personally i say the innocent being beaten is entirely more important than the sub human sitting in front of you wishing he knew you were coming 5 minutes earlier.

to get rid of torture entirely, we need peace, and that will never happen. our species has it in itslef to dominate, fight, desire, hate, and worship to the death. it has since the beginning of recorded history and will continue. so keep wishing.