Israel & Lebanon

[dig72]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Is there a logic behind that, or just moralising? Not trying to diss, just wondering where it's "wrong" to right an error that the UN should have handled in 1991 and where it's "wrong" for a sovereign nation to unleash Hell on another nation that harbors murderers and scum because they're too frightened to police themselves, even if those same murderers and scum use that nation's own populace as a shield against retribution while they commit actions that are condemned by any sort of civilized society. In my head, that's akin to having a serial rapist/cannibal living in your walls, going to and fro at will seeking whom they may violate and devour, and you're wondering why there's a SWAT team with a battering ram at your door.

The article is a rant by a man who writes science fiction and fantasy novels. This is also the same man who believes bush to be the most moderate, thoughtful, rational, and responsible president since dwight d. eisenhower.

In his tirade he goes on to say that, " Lebanese people who are not Shiite are fed up with Hezbollah."

Has orson scott ever been to Lebanon or lived/worked with the Lebanese people to backup such statement?

This stooge goes on to say that, bush's war has been so close to bloodless that most americans are barely aware they're at war.

I wonder why that is?



This artical is the usual dribble/propaganda that we hear from our "news" all the time and offers nothing for those in search of credible information/understanding.



I'm sorry to say, but this article is actually quite insulting.

[M?M]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

i just wanna know if israel asked lebanon for permision to go into lebanese territory and erradicate hizbullah .. witch seems to me the right thing to do ... if not the incursion of israel could be taken as an act of war

[dig72]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

i just wanna know if israel asked lebanon for permision to go into lebanese territory and erradicate hizbullah

Yeah, I'm sure the Lebanese government did accept israels offer for the planned and deliberate murder/destruction of it's it's citizens and country. Heck the Lebanese government even went one step further and actually gave the israeli forces the exact location of the Hezboallah fighters, locations such as, international airports, bridges, main roads/highways, mosques, warehouses, factories, trucks, Red Cross Ambulances, Lebanon's ports, economy, communications tourism industry, residential homes/buildings and inside the motor vehicles of fleeing terrified men, woman and children. The lebanese government has even invited the terrorists to invade it's southern borders and occupy villages.

But we know now that the locations were obvioulsy wrong, because of the 400+ civilians murdered, mostly young children including many more injured by these israeli armed terrorists, that only a handful have been indentified as Hezboallah fighters.

The attacks on Lebanon and all it's civilians are an act committed by terrorist.

[Nathan McWaters]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

The article is a rant by a man who writes science fiction and fantasy novels. This is also the same man who believes bush to be the most moderate, thoughtful, rational, and responsible president since dwight d. eisenhower.

And that disqualifies someone from making a statement, how? Dave Matthews and half of Hollywood do this on a regular basis. Are they any more qualified when they write articles in Rolling Stone saying that we've failed in Iraq and should pull out?

In his tirade he goes on to say that, " Lebanese people who are not Shiite are fed up with Hezbollah."

Has orson scott ever been to Lebanon or lived/worked with the Lebanese people to backup such statement?

Ask him. Or ask someone who has.

This stooge goes on to say that, bush's war has been so close to bloodless that most americans are barely aware they're at war.

I wonder why that is?

Because in comparison to every other war the American military has participated in since the turn of the 20th Century, it has been relatively bloodless. Just under 2,600 KIA over a five year period is a very light rate of loss in military terms. There hasn't been a massive military output of manpower or material effecting all sectors of the US economy akin to the World Wars, there hasn't been the scurrying unpreparedness and last ditch responses in the face of overwhelming enemy numbers of the Korean comflict, nor the seemingly endless attempt to fight a "war" without invading another nation (and cheating at that from time to time) while enduring seditious uprisings at home a'la Vietnam. Aside from filling countless mHz of Internet bandwidth and fanning all sorts of idealistic flames, the Iraq war has had very little direct impact on the average American life since 9/11, when compared to other major conflicts. The rest of the Coalition may not agree, as their own histories dictate different responses to enduring military loss of life, and I can't speak for them, but from the standpoint of a US military veteran of the Iraq campaign, I've got a little bit of voice to involve.

"Stooge" is perhaps too strong a term. If anything, Mr. Card's primary loyalty lies with the Church of Latter-Day Saints, for whom he did missionary work in the '80s. I don't think he's a big fan of anyone's government, much less a Republican one.

This artical is the usual dribble/propaganda that we hear from our "news" all the time and offers nothing for those in search of credible information/understanding.

Whose news? Australia's, or America's? As for credibility and research, why is it that people are so keen to accept the word of a famous name who's never seen or done anything like what they're speaking of, and blow off the words of people that were or are there? Rule #1 of research: never take the face value of secondhand sources as doctrine when a firsthand source is available. This isn't to say that Mr. Card is right or wrong (though having endured the the Cold War during the decades of appeasement, in my mind he does have a point), just that it's two-faced to automatically condemn someone's analysis when your own holds no stronger ground due to the same circumstance you've used against them.

[deepdarkandtribal]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Is there a logic behind that, or just moralising? Not trying to diss, just wondering where it's "wrong" to right an error that the UN should have handled in 1991 and where it's "wrong" for a sovereign nation to unleash Hell on another nation that harbors murderers and scum because they're too frightened to police themselves, even if those same murderers and scum use that nation's own populace as a shield against retribution while they commit actions that are condemned by any sort of civilized society. In my head, that's akin to having a serial rapist/cannibal living in your walls, going to and fro at will seeking whom they may violate and devour, and you're wondering why there's a SWAT team with a battering ram at your door.

Amen. WHat fucking respectable country on this earth would allow two of it's soliders to be captured, six others murdered and it's border towns to be completely shelled by rockets without doing anything about it? some of you people claiming isreal is over reacting need to think about this again.

[Bululu]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

When two Israeli soldier are kidnapped, the whole world goes crazy, but Israel kidnapped a whole nation .

[davetlv]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Hey Bululu, to focus this on just two kidnapped soldiers in wrong. . . this is about the shelling of a northern settlement, which led to a hizbollah amush ON ISRAELI TERRITORY, the murder of 8 Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of 2 others.

There has always been a clear end to this. . . let me know which part is difficult for you?

1. Implementation of Res 1559 - which included the dis-arming of a terrorist organisation by the name of Hizbollah and the re-activation of Lenabons army in Southern Lebanon to ensure that Hizbollah do not return

2. The return of our two IDF soldiers who were abducted on soverign Israeli territory.

The moment that happens and Israeli ceases its defensive measures against Hizbollah.

[Bululu]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

davetlv you know very well that if Isreal continues like this fear will always be in that region, Isrealis will continue fearing the arabs ( attacking and ruining more and more their international image) and it is dividing the Isreali society , 5000 people protested yesterday in Tel Aviv against this dirty war. what UN resolutions are you talking about , you know more than me that they can't do jack shit ,the first thing they would start doing is stopping your army from killing young childern and calling it surgical hits, 500 000 lebanese already are considered as refugees. You don't want Hizbullah to attack you and at the same you are holding 30 000 prisoners in your prisons , how can any one negotiate the release of prisoners with out any power.

[davetlv]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Bululu, UN Resolution 1559 passed in 2000 (i think), it brought an end to Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon as well as mandating the lebanese government to take control of Southern Lebanon and dis-arm Hizbollah.

Hizbollah regularly fire on Northern Israel and its about time this stopped, as set out in 1559

Your figure of 30,000 prisoners is nothing but cheap arab propaganda, do you know how many prisons we would need for that many prisoners. . . . i believe a more accurate number is 10,000. . . . .

[Bululu]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

and lets say the figure of 30000 is cheap arab propaganda , and 10000 prisoners which means 10000 seperated familys is nothing for you sir ?????
what Isreal is doing is trying to make the Lebanesse people especially the christians turn on Hizbullah , by destroying the infrastructure of the country which the chirstians and muslims built together, this way Hizbullah would be blamed and another chirstian Vs muslim war in Lebanon starts again like the exact one that is happening in Iraq right now , Sunni Vs Shiite. But in Lebanon I hope it won't happen because the Lebanesse people learned from the first invasion in 1982, I hope they did anyways.

[dig72]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

quote=Nathan McWaters And that disqualifies someone from making a statement, how? Dave Matthews and half of Hollywood do this on a regular basis. Are they any more qualified when they write articles in Rolling Stone saying that we've failed in Iraq and should pull out?

No Nathan, I called it dribble because alot of what he has to say is incorrect and unfounded.

card starts his rant with this, "I do hope that the readers of this column already know that no decent person could ever advocate that Israel negotiate with Hamas and Hezbollah or give in to their demands in the slightest in order to get their kidnapped soldiers back."

This comment is wrong, anyone with a tiny bit of history of this conflict would know that israel has in the past negotiated with Hezboallah, Hamas and will continue to do so in the future.

Ask him. Or ask someone who has.

Unless card has conducted a survey which involved all Lebanese on their own views on Hezboallah, than I think it's fair to say that these comments are not just uninformed or unfounded but are also quite insulting.

Who does card think he is, speaking on behalf of all Lebanese?

What's that I hear? You would like me to ask card if he has done a survey?

Oh please.

Because in comparison to every other war the American military has participated in since the turn of the 20th Century, it has been relatively bloodless. Just under 2,600 KIA over a five year period is a very light rate of loss in military terms. There hasn't been a massive military output of manpower or material effecting all sectors of the US economy akin to the World Wars, there hasn't been the scurrying unpreparedness and last ditch responses in the face of overwhelming enemy numbers of the Korean comflict, nor the seemingly endless attempt to fight a "war" without invading another nation (and cheating at that from time to time) while enduring seditious uprisings at home a'la Vietnam. Aside from filling countless mHz of Internet bandwidth and fanning all sorts of idealistic flames, the Iraq war has had very little direct impact on the average American life since 9/11, when compared to other major conflicts. The rest of the Coalition may not agree, as their own histories dictate different responses to enduring military loss of life, and I can't speak for them, but from the standpoint of a US military veteran of the Iraq campaign, I've got a little bit of voice to involve.

What of the 200,000+ Iraqi men, woman, children who have been slaughtered or the unforgotten victims in Afghanistan. Or do we call this a "bloodless war" only because 2,600 us soldiers have been killed so far?

As usual cowards like card can call it a "bloodless war" simply because he is not on the receiving end of it all. I'm pretty sure he would change his tune if his own child, brother, sister, mother, father, wife became the victims of this "bloodless war."

"Stooge" is perhaps too strong a term. If anything, Mr. Card's primary loyalty lies with the Church of Latter-Day Saints, for whom he did missionary work in the '80s. I don't think he's a big fan of anyone's government, much less a Republican one.

Well I guess going to Church didn't do him much good.

Where is his compassion, concern for the slaughter of the hundreds of innocent civilians, many whom are children? Where are his calls for the immediate halt to the barbaric and unjust terrorist actions unleashed on an innocent peoples who just want to live in peace? Where are his concerns for the thousands made homeless/refugees because of this sensless act?

card the warmonger goes on to suggest that if you vote against the terrorist actions of bush & co, that you're an appeaser. How pathetic.

Whose news? Australia's, or America's? As for credibility and research, why is it that people are so keen to accept the word of a famous name who's never seen or done anything like what they're speaking of, and blow off the words of people that were or are there? Rule #1 of research: never take the face value of secondhand sources as doctrine when a firsthand source is available. This isn't to say that Mr. Card is right or wrong (though having endured the the Cold War during the decades of appeasement, in my mind he does have a point), just that it's two-faced to automatically condemn someone's analysis when your own holds no stronger ground due to the same circumstance you've used against them.

Everyone in entitled to their own opinions, all I've done is highlighted some things that are incorrect or unfounded in his article. It actually has heaps more rubbish and usual propaganda in it but I chose not to waste anymore time trying to highlight them all.

Nathan, if you are happy with the opinions of this man and find his views interesting or even informative than good for you.

I've given card some of my precious time and have come to the not too difficult decision and that is to try my very best in future to avoid ever having to read any of the pro terrorist propaganda that this stooge so proudly spews.


I'll leave you with the most recent article by a man who actually lives amongst this war torn region and someone who knows what he is talking about.

http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

[M?M]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Hey Bululu, to focus this on just two kidnapped soldiers in wrong. . . this is about the shelling of a northern settlement, which led to a hizbollah amush ON ISRAELI TERRITORY, the murder of 8 Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of 2 others.

There has always been a clear end to this. . . let me know which part is difficult for you?

1. Implementation of Res 1559 - which included the dis-arming of a terrorist organisation by the name of Hizbollah and the re-activation of Lenabons army in Southern Lebanon to ensure that Hizbollah do not return

2. The return of our two IDF soldiers who were abducted on soverign Israeli territory.

The moment that happens and Israeli ceases its defensive measures against Hizbollah.

read this article ... http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

[davetlv]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Avnery would be far happier living in state controlled by both Hamas and Hizbollah. . . . he's the male equivilant to Amira Haas. . . . a fringe voice which has very little support amongst the Israeli population for his way will lead to the destruction of the State of Isreal.

[Jenks]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

good read... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740949.html

[dig72]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

The israeli armed terrorists have knowingly hit a UN base in Lebanon killing 4 UN workers.

This is the second time folks, the first time was in 1996 when over over 100 civilians who were sheltering there were deliberately slaughtered by these criminals.


http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=117191


When is the world going to say enough is enough of this israeli armed terrorism and it's evil actions?