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This is the second time folks, the first time was in 1996 when over over 100 civilians who were sheltering there were deliberately slaughtered by these criminals.
How are you going to roll your eyes to this David? (crosspost from GYY)
... taken from Human Rights Watch / Handicap International (yeah yeah, string puppets of Hezbollah and what not [/sarcasm]):
Israeli Cluster Munitions Hit Civilians in Lebanon
Israel Must Not Use Indiscriminate Weapons
(Beirut, July 24, 2006) – Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.
Now the REALLY cool thing about cluster bombs is that +/- 15% of the little bombs doesn't explode right away. Some can stay dormant for years and then (when you accidentally hit them with something) go off and blow you to... Well, see for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URzQN...cluster%20bomb (Vietnamese guy of 24 who was accidentally killed by a left over cluster)
Who gives a toss right? I'm sure that the towelhead who will step on one of these things between now and say 2026 will be in one way or another related to Hezbollah...
And btw:
Originally posted by davetlv
Here an interesring statistic for you.
2000 Sorties flown by the IAF - 229 civilians killed.
Thats something like 0.11 people killed per sortie. Whilst granted infrastructure is being demolished, the IAF and IDF is doing everything to minimalise human loss.
Like stuffing rockets full of nasty little add-ons and shoting them into to solely civillian areas. That would be wrong wouldnt it? Or hiding munitions amongst civillian population, or how about forcing people to stay in their homes as you use them as human shields?
Or how about setting and firing your launchers from an area 'controlled' by the UN. That would be wrong too, right?
You're certainly entitled to what every opinions you hold Kinky, even if you re misguided in them.
I note however, that you convienently forget to mention that all this could have been over with by now, or even that it never had to happen. . . .but why let truth and fact get in the way of view point right?
^^^ Like the French say: les excuses sont faits pour s'enservir, les fous pour les croire. (excuses are made to use them, fools are made to believe them)
Ah wel David, at least you're admitting that these days there isn't any difference anymore between Hezbollah and the IDF/IAF
Melanie Phillips... Ow yeah, isn't that Martha Stewart's niece or something? Yup, clearly a better source of info than Human Rights Watch
Oh btw, when someone posts something you don't like, do you always call them names? Ah well, being called a dipshit is better than getting a cluster bomb dropped on my ass. But then again, I'm not firing a rocket launcher from a UN observation post...
Excuses, excuses... I'm sure you play a hell of a game of doge ball David.
this thread will soon become longer than the nonsense thread. There is no answer to the situation IMO. It is what it is and what it has been for a long time. It will always remain the same. Muslims vs. Jews and Western Ideals.
No matter how any side looks at it, innocent people are dying everyday and more hatred is created. I don?t see any of this being resolved anytime soon.
Back to KinkyJ and Davetlv. It seems to be there thread
Originally posted by Miroslav
It's not like he grabbed his balls and sucked his dick. It's not like he gave the Saudis the original copy of the Constitution to use as toilet paper. It's not like he gave away the secret recipe to the Colonel's chicken. .
Melanie Phillips... Ow yeah, isn't that Martha Stewart's niece or something? Yup, clearly a better source of info than Human Rights Watch
The article was there for you to read somehting different to your usual source. . . . as an ex journo i would have thought you would have appreciated it.
Originally posted by KinKyJ
Oh btw, when someone posts something you don't like, do you always call them names? Ah well, being called a dipshit is better than getting a cluster bomb dropped on my ass. But then again, I'm not firing a rocket launcher from a UN observation post...
No, only really stupid people. Your entire news gathering for this crisis here in the region is tainted by the fact that your fellow journos are not supplying you with the news, just the news they want you to see. Melanies article pointed that out don't you think?
Originally posted by KinKyJ
Excuses, excuses... I'm sure you play a hell of a game of doge ball David.
I play no games here KinKy, unlike you, this is my life. I make no excuses for my government neither do I expect them to make any for the situation in the north.
I repeat what you so clear have chosen to ignore, there is a way to end all this
Originally posted by davetlv
1. Implementation of Res 1559 - which included the dis-arming of a terrorist organisation by the name of Hizbollah and the re-activation of Lenabons army in Southern Lebanon to ensure that Hizbollah do not return
2. The return of our two IDF soldiers who were abducted on soverign Israeli territory.
The moment that happens and Israeli ceases its defensive measures against Hizbollah.
And re your report by HRW. . . .remember Jenin in 2002? UN and others were wrong there, just like they could be wrong here, and up until the end of this conflict we will never truely know will we!
The article was there for you to read somehting different to your usual source. . . . as an ex journo i would have thought you would have appreciated it.
Unlike some, I appreciate every kind of point of view.
Originally posted by davetlv
No, only really stupid people. Your entire news gathering for this crisis here in the region is tainted by the fact that your fellow journos are not supplying you with the news, just the news they want you to see. Melanies article pointed that out don't you think?
Didn't know HRW was a press agency and you're right, journalist, like lawyers, are the scum of the earth, poisoning everybody with disinformation. Yawn...
Originally posted by davetlv
unlike you, this is my life.
Which gives you the right to have the arrogance to call every single shred of criticism on the Israeli army tainted bullshit? Kinda makes me think of the state of mind of the Russians under Stalin... Sorry for questioning things David, it truly makes me a Hezzie luva
Originally posted by davetlv
I repeat what you so clear have chosen to ignore, there is a way to end all this
I don't ignore that, I agree with that. But hell, that doesn't justify dropping cluster bombs on civilian areas. I guess you either choose to ignore that or I must have overread that little paragraph that said Israel will clean up the bombs that didn't go off.
Originally posted by davetlv
IAnd re your report by HRW. . . .remember Jenin in 2002? UN and others were wrong there, just like they could be wrong here, and up until the end of this conflict we will never truely know will we!
Yup, the pictures of those cluster bombs must've been photoshopped, I agree.
Unlike some, I appreciate every kind of point of view.
Really, I hope you're right, although I have seen no evidence of that yet.
Originally posted by KinKyJ
Didn't know HRW was a press agency and you're right, journalist, like lawyers, are the scum of the earth, poisoning everybody with disinformation. Yawn...
If you used just a small portion of your brain you would no doubt be a fordimable foe. . . .that said. . . .
Originally posted by KinKyJ
Which gives you the right to have the arrogance to call every single shred of criticism on the Israeli army tainted bullshit?
Really did I say that? Are you sure? Are you not simply projecting here old boy?
Originally posted by KinKyJ
Kinda makes me think of the state of mind of the Russians under Stalin... Sorry for questioning things David, it truly makes me a Hezzie luva
Question all you like, KinKy, I'm informed thats one thing meterosexuals do very well
But serioulsy how can you question anything when you lack even basics in inofrmation because your colleagues are not reporting this war all they are reporting is an Israeli incursion, which this is not. See my point yet?
Originally posted by KinKyJ
I don't ignore that, I agree with that. But hell, that doesn't justify dropping cluster bombs on civilian areas. I guess you either choose to ignore that or I must have overread that little paragraph that said Israel will clean up the bombs that didn't go off.
Yup, the pictures of those cluster bombs must've been photoshopped, I agree.
Arrogance David, can you spell it?
You ignore everything your little European mind cant cope with, and that seems quite a lot right now.
Dug this out, was written yesterday, prior to the shelling on the UN. This is just another one of those nasty little truths you frigging Europeans seem to want to ignore.
U.N.?s Human Shields
Already part of the problem.
By Michael I. Krauss & J. Peter Pham
As part of international efforts to end the conflict in southern Lebanon, there has emerged the scheme of a United Nations peacekeeping force to separate the opposing forces. NPR reports that U.N. Secretary General Annan is, predictably, pushing for a robust international force there. But even the White House seems to be considering the idea. ?Somehow you?re going to have to provide stability in southern Lebanon,? White House spokesman Tony Snow said last week. ?Whether it?s an international stabilization force, whether it is the Lebanese armed forces, all those things are under discussion.?
What many seem to forget is that there already is a U.N. military presence in Lebanon ? and one armed, at least on paper, with a robust mandate. Alas, the blue-helmeted ?peacekeepers? are part of the problem, not the solution.
Established in 1978 pursuant to Security Council resolutions 425 and 426, and renewed in January 2006 by resolution 1655, the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has the mission of ?confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring its effective authority in the area.? The UNIFIL operation has an annual operating budget of $99.3 million, approximately one quarter of which (as with all U.N. operations) is paid by the American taxpayer. The force comprises 2,000 troops from China, France, Ghana, India, Ireland, Italy, Poland, and Ukraine, along with 400 international and local civilians, and is commanded by French major-general Alain Pellegrini, who has a pro-Lebanon record in the Middle East.
There?s something very familiar about Kofi Annan?s 2006 call for U.N. troops ? just take a look at the 1978 documents pertaining to UNIFIL for the reason why. As the U.N.?s own website concedes, an invasion on northern Israel on March 11, 1978, by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) caused ?many dead and wounded among the Israeli population.? When Israel responded in self-defense by targeting the then de facto PLO state in southern Lebanon, the Lebanese government denied responsibility for the Palestinian terror and appealed to the U.N. The Security Council ? where the Carter administration was represented by neophyte diplomat Andrew Young ? agreed to a resolution demanding Israeli withdrawal and creating UNIFIL with its three objectives. Twenty-nine years later, the only goal that UNIFIL has achieved is the first, the verification of Israel?s complete withdrawal from Lebanon.
When Israeli forces completed their pullout from Lebanon in early 2000, Foreign Minister David Levy reminded Annan that it was now up to Lebanon, in collaboration with UNIFIL, to live up to their obligations to deploy the Lebanese army in the south and to secure its border. That the present conflict is occurring is proof positive of the failure of the Lebanese government and of UNIFIL to even attempt to fulfill these obligations. The arsenal and forces that Hezbollah has amassed on Israel?s northern frontier were assembled under the eyes of UNIFIL. In fact, accusing the U.N. troops of ?failure? would be inaccurate; ?enabler? might be a more apt description.
One incident we encountered during our visit to Israel last year illustrates this sad fact. In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged ?improvised explosive devices? (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then ?requested? that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the ?Zionist? border, it was up to the ?Zionists? to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unguarded windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which our Israeli sources have admitted required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer?s driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya. The cynical cruelty of this murder, which Hezbollah proceeded to widely celebrate across Lebanon, speaks volumes not only about Hezbollah, but also about UNIFIL.
Nor has the situation changed much now that the conflict is ?hot.? UNIFIL?s only apparent action this past week has been to voice concerns that its troops might get hit in the crossfire. This is indeed a risk ? because UNIFIL has long permitted Hezbollah to locate its forces, including its missile batteries, in the very shadow of installations belonging to the ?peacekeepers.? UNIFIL has thus turned into a very convenient and high-profile human shield for terrorists.
The U.N. force commander in Rwanda, Canadian Lieutenant-General Rom?o Dallaire, remains haunted by the refusal of U.N. bureaucrats to let him intervene to prevent the 1994 genocide by seizing the arms that Hutu killers were stockpiling. Gen. Dallaire?s boss in the Department of Peacekeeping Operations at the time was one Kofi A. Annan of Ghana, who argued that any such action would exceed the peacekeepers? mandate. There is no evidence that the Dallaire?s UNIFIL counterparts have even attempted to fulfill their duty in South Lebanon. If we are friends of peace, we must prevent the U.N. from foiling it again.
Michael I. Krauss is professor of law at George Mason University School of Law. J. Peter Pham is director of the Nelson Institute for International and Public Affairs at James Madison University. Both are adjunct fellows of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
Really, I hope you're right, although I have seen no evidence of that yet.
Prolly cuz you're only reading what you can hack into?
Originally posted by davetlv
If you used just a small portion of your brain you would no doubt be a fordimable foe. . . .that said. . . .
If were a little selfrightious, you'd be picking up a gun and join your brothers instead of playing the conscience of the ME and making an ass out of yourself thinking I could be bothered about personal "insults"...
Originally posted by davetlv
Question all you like, KinKy, I'm informed thats one thing meterosexuals do very well
... like this lame attempt to be funny.
Originally posted by davetlv
But serioulsy how can you question anything when you lack even basics in inofrmation because your colleagues are not reporting this war all they are reporting is an Israeli incursion, which this is not. See my point yet?
Will you please stop with these moronic prejudices? You think you''re the only one who obtains info and that the rest of us is blind? Like I said: arrogance.
Originally posted by davetlv
You ignore everything your little European mind cant cope with, and that seems quite a lot right now.
Like I said: arrogance.
Originally posted by davetlv
Dug this out, was written yesterday, prior to the shelling on the UN. This is just another one of those nasty little truths you frigging Europeans seem to want to ignore.
Old news for my "little European mind" tbh, but can you tell me WHERE I wrote anything in this thread which ingored that? Try to dig that out.
I'm kinda getting disappointed in you David, I always regarded you as someone who was too intelligent to launch personal attacks on people who you THINK disagree with you. Guess you must be on the rag or something
Where is your condemnation of 2000+ rockets being fired into my country?
Where is your condemnation of the fact that Hizbollah is using Lebanese citizens are human shields?
Where is your condemnation of the fact that Hozbollah use civillian addresses to fire their rockets into israel and to store their rockets?
Where is your condemnation of the UN for allowing Hizbollah to fire from their premises?
Where is your condemnation of Hizbollah for packing their Katusyot rockets with things that cause untold harm to human beings - ballbarings, nails and the like, the sole purpose of which is to cause mazimum harm to civillians.
All we do is from you is attacks on my country for fighting a defensive war.
Truely pathetic of you Kinky, really it is.
You wanna know why my patience is a little thin right now Kinky. . . .my country is at war. Its a war on two fronts with one financial backer.
Those of you in the West, with the exception of America, think we seem to enjoy this. We don't. Do you really think Israeli revel in the misery of the lebanese people? Do you?
But, whilst felling pity for our northern neighbours, we can not allow our country to be attacked in the way it has been. The time as come for us to stand up and fight back.
So, I'm sorry if that disapoints you Kinky, but tough. I'm sorry if you feel that I am behaving in a way you didn't expect, tough shit.
And no I'm not on the rag, I have however just come back from a hospital in Haifa where my best friend was sent after a Katusha hit his building. So fuck you for disapointing you.
Where is your condemnation of 2000+ rockets being fired into my country?
Where is your condemnation of the fact that Hizbollah is using Lebanese citizens are human shields?
Where is your condemnation of the fact that Hozbollah use civillian addresses to fire their rockets into israel and to store their rockets?
Where is your condemnation of the UN for allowing Hizbollah to fire from their premises?
Where is your condemnation of Hizbollah for packing their Katusyot rockets with things that cause untold harm to human beings - ballbarings, nails and the like, the sole purpose of which is to cause mazimum harm to civillians.
*sigh* want me to state the obvious? I condemn all of the above, DAH
Originally posted by davetlv
All we do is from you is attacks on my country for fighting a defensive war.
Truely pathetic of you Kinky, really it is.
As far as I remember (and have posted numerous times) my opinion is that Hezbollah 'n' C° should be wiped off the face of the earth. But I don't think dropping those cluster bombs in those areas is the way to do it. Sorry if you take that as an attack, it's clearly not.
Originally posted by davetlv
You wanna know why my patience is a little thin right now Kinky. . . .my country is at war. Its a war on two fronts with one financial backer.
Those of you in the West, with the exception of America, think we seem to enjoy this. We don't. Do you really think Israeli revel in the misery of the lebanese people? Do you?
No I don't and I have never said that either. Quit wiping me on the same stack as those idiots who say Israel does.
Originally posted by davetlv
But, whilst felling pity for our northern neighbours, we can not allow our country to be attacked in the way it has been. The time as come for us to stand up and fight back.
I don't pitty your neighbours, I pitty every innocent victim, no matter on what side they are. That however doesn't mean I don't think you guys should strike back.
Originally posted by davetlv
So, I'm sorry if that disapoints you Kinky, but tough. I'm sorry if you feel that I am behaving in a way you didn't expect, tough shit.
And no I'm not on the rag, I have however just come back from a hospital in Haifa where my best friend was sent after a Katusha hit his building. So fuck you for disapointing you.
Sorry to hear that, but I don't see the point on taking that out on someone who agrees with you (be it not all the way).
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