16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[thesightless]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

NEOee

the engineer was daveman. he is a civil engineer based in south western connecticut. (recently moved though). i beleive the person who knew about melting of metal in the arc welder reference was Kobe. whomever it was, they were someone who was certified in whatever they were talking about for safety and quality. i dont vouch for either. but daveman, and i have hung out with him a few times, is indeed a genious.


and on rule 5, its right. stupid civilians have no right to attack other people of a different nation and not expect a response.

its sickening the level of apology for hezzbollah here. they are a rouge militia funded by people outside thier own natiional borders with the sole purpose of launching attacks on innocent people both within and beyond their own population. they have no flag, no uniform, and no, that doesnt make it illegal for someone to hunt them down. they do not operate within lebanon under lebanese approval. just the opposite. they are essentially a black ops murder squad funded from iran and syria operating elsewhere.

im done here. if you are gonna call out my source. make sure its the right one. daveman. you can PM him for his credentials.

[Jenks]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

its sickening the level of apology for hezzbollah here.

+ Eleventy-billion. ffs.

[Bululu]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Sightless do research before posting , Hizbullah have a flag and they have a uniform for their army. I am not going to post the flag or the uniform but I will let you do your own research .
PS: I wish you spoke arabic and heard how all the Lebanesse people are behind Hizbullah wether they are christians Catholics,Marounite or Muslims Suniit or shiiaa. their governement isn't doing shit.

[thesightless]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

because you create a logo doesnt mean its an recognized entity. they arent a country, they dont operate as one, they arent anything more than a group of pyschos who want to impose islam on a region. and governments let them get out of check for too long. david koresh and his group of branch davidians were the exact same thing execpt they didnt go out killing people. YOU DO research. i can make a flag and call myslef whatever i want, it doesnt give me any credibility on the world stage.

[Bululu]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Man sometimes you make me laugh , if you make a mistake admit making a mistake and don't keep on talking gebrish , Hizbullah doesn't want to impose Islam on the region, they want to get there people that are imprisoned in the Isreali prisons with out judgment. If Hizbulah wanted to impose Islam on the region as you said they would start with Lebanon and all the Christians that live there, please man refer from posting just to post and say somethign that would educate us all.

[thesightless]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

ok, so i made a mistake saying they want to impose thier religion.

it still doesnt change the fact they are nothing more than a group of people who illegally make bombs, attack innocents, with no authority from any recognized country on the globe, and do so simply out of the desire to inflict death.

[davetlv]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Sean

Heres the Hizbollah flag - no not the blue one, that belongs to the UN. the yellow one!



And Sean you had no reason toapologise the aim of Hizbollah is to have Islam as the religion of government - ever heard of Shariah.


Now whilst Bululu might like living in the west with all that it offers, Hizbollah firmly believe, like their sponsers Iran, in the rule of Shariah.

[neoee]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

im done here. if you are gonna call out my source. make sure its the right one. daveman. you can PM him for his credentials.

I never doubted daveman's credentials, but in your statement which you touted as fact you said you spoke to TWO engineers. When I saw that I decided against replying there but seeing the inconsistancies with regard to the Qana theory (believe one, ignore the other) and while commenting on it I thought it was appropriate to mention it.

The other person (I don't think it was Kobe) was trying to give information as if he was a metallurgist, but simply someone who had experience welding which IMO is no qualifier. Especially, as I mentioned before, the orginization who does consist of metallurgists and the same folks who certified the very steel used, are saying otherwise.

Don't in any way try to turn my statements into somehow being a Hezbollah apologist. I don't believe I have enough info to really form an opinion here. I do think Israel is going a bit overboard but thats about the only opinion I've formed so far. Who's right, who's wrong, I don't know, and I'm not even sure I care. Far as I see it, at this point if the two groups want to kill each other off so be it, things might be a bit quieter for the rest of us (sorry DaveTLV).

[malayday]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Sorry maladay, but either your not explaining yourself properly here or your rambling. So lets try to get to the bottom of this before we move on to the rest of your post.

1. Who did it never belong to?

2. Immorally given? Would you care to elaborate?

3. Such a paranoid people? Who are?

sorry for the confusion to my fellow haters....sightless as well..if you guys read the post right after i expressed my confusion i replied to a post on page 5 thinking there is no page six...so if it seems rambling im not surprised...but dont stop somewhere as soon as it doesnt make sense or your confused...read on that what i do with almost all of your posts...atleast give me that much...so getting to the bottom of something before you read on is kind of pointless...i was refering to stuff now irrelevant in this thread...but read on if you may..sono wrote something amusing maybe itll cheer you up....its the 11 rule thing...very well put...

[davetlv]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

I repeat

Sorry maladay, but either your not explaining yourself properly here or your rambling. So lets try to get to the bottom of this before we move on to the rest of your post.

1. Who did it never belong to?

2. Immorally given? Would you care to elaborate?

3. Such a paranoid people? Who are?

One assumes that you post here for discussion, to enable that I would need to know exactly what you mean in your posts, thats why i repost here my questions to you so that we can discuss your earlier post.

[dig72]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Latest by Uri Avnery
The Knife in the Back
08/02/2006


THE DAY after the war will be the Day of the Long Knives.
Everybody will blame everybody else. The politicians will blame each other. The generals will blame each other. The politicians will blame the generals. And, most of all, the generals will blame the politicians.
Always, in every country and after every war, when the generals fail, the "knife in the back" legend raises its head. If only the politicians had not stopped the army just when it was on the point of achieving a glorious, crushing, historic victory…
That's what happened in Germany after World War I, when the legend gave birth to the Nazi movement. That's what happened in America after Vietnam. That's what is going to happen here. The first stirrings can already be felt.
THE SIMPLE truth is that up to now, the 22nd day of the war, not one single military target has been reached. The same army that took just six days to rout three big Arab armies in 1967 has not succeeded in overcoming a small "terrorist organization" in a time span that is already longer than the momentous Yom Kippur War. Then, the army succeeded in just 20 days in turning a stunning defeat at the beginning into a resounding military victory at the end.
In order to create an image of achievement, military spokesmen asserted yesterday that "we have succeeded in killing 200 (or 300, or 400, who is counting?) of the 1000 fighters of Hizbullah." The assertion that the entire terrifying Hizbullah consisted of one thousand fighters speaks for itself.
According to correspondents, President Bush is frustrated. The Israeli army has not "delivered the goods". Bush sent them into war believing that the powerful army, equipped with the most advanced American arms, will "finish the job" in a few days. It was supposed to eliminate Hizbullah, turn Lebanon over to the stooges of the US, weaken Iran and perhaps also open the way to "regime change" in Syria. No wonder that Bush is angry.
Ehud Olmert is even more furious. He went to war in high spirits and with a light heart, because the Air Force generals had promised to destroy Hizbullah and their rockets within a few days. Now he is stuck in the mud, and no victory in sight.
AS USUAL with us, at the termination of the fighting (and possibly even before) the War of the Generals will start. The front lines are already emerging.
The commanders of the land army blame the Chief-of-Staff and the power-intoxicated Air Force, who promised to achieve victory all by themselves. To bomb, bomb and bomb, destroy roads, bridges, residential quarters and villages, and - finito!
The followers of the Chief-of-Staff and the other Air Force generals will blame the land forces, and especially Northern Command. Their spokesmen in the media already declare that this command is full of inept officers, who have been shunted there because the North seemed a backwater while the real action was going on in the South (Gaza) and the Center (West Bank).
There are already insinuations that the Chief of Northern Command, General Udi Adam, was appointed to his job only in homage to his father, General Kuti Adam, who was killed in the First Lebanon War.
THE MUTUAL accusations are all quite right. This war is plastered with military failures - in the air, on land and on the sea.
They are rooted in the terrible arrogance in which we were brought up and which has become a part of our national character. It is even more typical of the army, and reaches its climax in the Air Force.
For years we have told each other that we have the most-most-most army in the world. We have convinced not only ourselves, but also Bush and the entire world. After all, we did win an astounding victory in six days in 1967. As a result, when this time the army did not win a huge victory in six days, everybody was astounded. Why, what happened?
One of the declared aims of this war was the rehabilitation of the Israeli army's deterrence power. That really has not happened.
That’s because the other side of the coin of arrogance is the profound contempt for Arabs, an attitude that has already led to severe military failures in the past. It's enough to remember the Yom Kippur war. Now our soldiers are learning the hard way that the "terrorists" are highly motivated, tough fighters, not junkies dreaming of "their" virgins in Paradise.
But beyond arrogance and contempt for the opponent, there is a basic military problem: it is just impossible to win a war against guerillas. We have seen this in our 18-year stay in Lebanon. Then we drew the unavoidable conclusion and got out. True, without good sense, without an agreement with the other side. (We don't speak with terrorists, do we? - even if they are the dominant force on the ground.) But we did get out.
God knows what gave today's generals the unfounded self-confidence to believe that they would win where their predecessors failed so miserably.
And most of all: even the best army in the world cannot win a war that has no clear aims. Karl von Clausewitz, the guru of military science, pronounced that "war is nothing more than the continuation of politics by other means". Olmert and Peretz, two complete dilettantes, have turned this inside out: "War is nothing more than the continuation of the lack of policy by other means."
MILITARY EXPERTS say that in order to succeed in war, there must be (a) a clear aim, (b) an aim that is achievable, and (c) the means necessary for achieving this aim.
All these three conditions are lacking in this war. That is clearly the fault of the political leadership.
Therefore, the main blame will be laid at the feet of the twins, Olmert-Peretz. They have succumbed to the temptation of the moment and dragged the state into a war, in a decision that was hasty, unconsidered and reckless.
As Nehemia Strassler wrote in Haaretz: They could have stopped after two or three days, when all the world agreed that Hizbullah's provocation justified an Israeli response, when nobody was yet doubting the capabilities of the Israeli army. The operation would have looked sensible, sober and proportional.
But Olmert and Peretz could not stop. As greenhorns in matters of war, they did not know that the boasts of the generals cannot be relied on, that even the best military plans are not worth the paper on which they are written, that in war the unexpected must be expected, that nothing is more temporary then the glory of war. They were intoxicated by the war's popularity, egged on by a herd of fawning journalists, driven out of their minds by their own glory as War Leaders.
Olmert was roused by his own incredibly kitschy speeches, which he rehearsed with his hangers-on. Peretz, so it seems, stood in front of the mirror and already saw himself as the next Prime Minister, Mister Security, a Second Ben-Gurion.
And so, like two village idiots, to the sound of drums and bugles, they set off at the head of their March of Folly straight towards political and military failure.
It is reasonable to assume that they will pay the price after the war.
WHAT WILL come out of this whole mess?
No one talks anymore about eliminating Hizbullah or disarming it and destroying all the rockets. That has been forgotten long ago.
At the start of the war, the government furiously rejected the idea of deploying an international force of any kind along the border. The army believed that such a force would not protect Israel, but only restrict its freedom of action. Now, suddenly, the deployment of this force has become the main aim of the campaign. The army is continuing the operation solely in order to "prepare the ground for the international force", and Olmert declares that he will go on fighting until it appears on the ground.
That is, of course, a sorry alibi, a ladder for getting down from the high tree. The international force can be deployed only in agreement with Hizbullah. No country will send its soldiers to a place where they would have to fight the locals. And everywhere in the area, the local Shiite inhabitants will return to their villages - including the Hizbullah underground fighters.
Further on, the force will also be totally dependent on the agreement of Hizbullah. If a bomb explodes under a bus full of French soldiers, a cry will go up in Paris: bring our sons home. That is what happened when the US Marines were bombed in Beirut.
The Germans, who shocked the world this week by opposing the call for a cease-fire, certainly will not send soldiers to the Israeli border. That's just what they need, to be obliged to shoot at Israeli soldiers.
And, most importantly, nothing will prevent Hizbullah from launching their rockets over the heads of the international force, any time they want to. What will the international force do then? Conquer all the area up to Beirut? And how will Israel respond?
Olmert wants the force to control the Lebanese-Syrian border. That, too, is illusory. That border goes around the entire West and North of Lebanon. Anybody who wants to smuggle weapons will stay away from the main roads, which will be controlled by the international soldiers. He will find hundreds of places along the border to do this. With the proper bribe, one can do anything in Lebanon.
Therefore, after the war, we will stand more or less in the same place we were before we started this sorry adventure, before the killing of almost a thousand Lebanese and Israelis, before the eviction from their homes of more than a million human beings, Israelis and Lebanese, before the destruction of more than a thousand homes both in Lebanon and Israel.
AFTER THE war, the enthusiasm will simmer down, the inhabitants of the North will lick their wounds and the army will start to investigate its failures. Everybody will claim that he or she was against the war from the first day on. Then the Day of Judgment will come.
The conclusion that presents itself is: kick out Olmert, send Peretz packing and sack Halutz.
In order to embark on a new course, the only one that will solve the problem: negotiations and peace with the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians. And: with Hamas and Hizbullah.
Because it's only with enemies that one makes peace.

[dig72]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Another good article by Robert Fisk.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14378.htm

[davetlv]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

A far more interesting piece from Britain.

The war against Israel - Melanie Phillips

Eight Israeli civilians were killed today by Hezbollah which fired 130 rockets at Israel within a ninety-minute period. 130 in 90 minutes! And at such a tiny country! Israel is smaller than Wales. Just imagine if humdreds rockets were fired from Scotland, say, at Wales with a view to wiping Wales off the map and murdering all Welsh people. If only a small number of rockets were fired at Britain day after day, it would be at war. Can anyone doubt that if Britain was subjected to the kind of bombardment Israel has been enduring, with 100, 150, 200 rockets per day being fired at its towns and cities with the express purpose of wiping it out altogether, Britain?s armed forces would be responding with ferocity to put a stop to it?

Yet in Britain, the rules for the Jewish state are totally different. Israel is under genocidal attack, Ahmadinejad says the way to achieve peace in the Middle East is for Israel to be destroyed, one third of Israel is living in bomb shelters, its defence forces have their hands tied behind their backs because Hezbollah has hidden its rockets among civilians with the monstrous intention that as many of them as possible should be killed in order to turn the west against Israel victims; and yet as Haaretz reports, the Edinburgh Film Festival has barred an Israeli film director from the screening of his own work because

?it might be in your best interest not to attend the festival this year for your own sake, rather than for ours?,

BBC News Online thinks the most important news of the day is

Lebanon damage ?holding up? aid
Aid agencies in Lebanon say the severe damage to roads and bridges by Israeli air strikes is having a drastic effect on distribution of badly needed aid. Goods can only be transported in small lorries for fears that larger vehicles will be targeted, they say,

and Tony Blair is under siege from his Labour MPs who are consumed with righteous anger not against Hezbollah which is using the Lebanese as human shields, not against Ahmadinejad for his neo-Hitlerian agenda, but against Israel, their chosen victims, for refusing this time to line up passively to be slaughtered. Thus the Labour party and much of Britain (along with similarly-minded folk elsewhere: the New York Times is on this vile bandwagon, too) respond to genocidal aggression by viciously turning upon its designated victims for having the gall to defend themselves.

If, heaven forbid, this does turn into a second Holocaust, we can now discern the key difference from the first one. This time the Jews will be blamed for their own destruction. And this time, the political left and the media will have blood on their hands. Indeed, they already do. The lies, libels and distortions, the selective reporting and omissions, the egregious double standards, the moral inversion which turns jihadi murderers into resistance fighters and their victims into war criminals, the willingess to report Hezbollah propaganda as the truth while disparaging Israeli statements as lies (when they are even reported at all), not to mention the ancient canards against the Jews now being blurted out everywhere from California to Canary Wharf ? all are not only creating a lethal climate of increasingly hysterical hatred against Israel and the Jews, but are also egging on the terror-puppeteers of the jihad and recruiting yet more to the cause of murdering Jews and waging holy war against the west.

As ever, Mark Steyn lays bare the savage truth:

For centuries, Jews were viewed as sinister wandering rootless cosmopolitan figures of no national allegiance. So they became a conventional sovereign state and now they?re hated for that. The standard defense is that it?s not anti-Semitic to criticize Israeli policies, but, as Miss Campbell?s letter suggests, what?s being questioned is not Israel?s policies but the right of Israel to have policies, especially on national security. If, say, some fellows in Mexico had kidnapped California State Troopers and were lobbing rockets randomly into residential areas of San Diego and Los Angeles, even La-La-Land libs would be demanding the US respond. It?s only the Israelis the world wishes to deny the conventional rights of sovereignty. In other words, it?s the legitimacy of the state that?s at issue. In effect, Israel has become the geopolitical version of the European Jew who?s allowed to operate a store in the town but not to exercise full ownership rights: in the old days, Jews faced property restrictions; now they face sovereignty restrictions.

The old chestnut that to be anti-Israel is not necessarily to be anti-Jew won?t wash. Antisemitism is protean. It changes shape from generation to generation. First, Jews were hated on account of their religion. Then they were hated on account of their (supposed) race. And now they are hated on account of their nation state. Just as the individual Jew was once made the universal scapegoat for the crimes of others, now the collective Jew in the Jewish state is being forced to play the same role.

Israel is the defining moral issue of our time. Appallingly, Britain has put itself on the wrong side. The prejudice that now consumes what passes for public debate simply puts it beyond the moral pale. What is happening now in Britain is shocking beyond words.

[runningman]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

i think this war was planned a couple months ago in Canada when the Bilderbergers had their annual meeting. They are obvioulsy surrounding Iran (they being the jews and Coalition forces). Get out a map and look at what is going on. If you have ever played Risk you will see its obvious.

[sono]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

The Israelis have taken a good hiding today.

If hizbollah can do this, imagine what Iran can do.

The americans and israelis are totally humiliated and don't have a clue how to come out of this as 'winners'.

We all know whats next.....yep, The israelis will target civilians and carry out massacres to hide their defeat.

Still wanna destroy hizbollah?