What's keeping Europe divided?

[KinKyJ]

Since Belgium is the political center of Europe (and military as well because the NATO HQ is based here) and since I've been on a European School (info) during primary and highschool, it's safe to say I'm pretty EU minded. That's why it pisses me off that during an international crisis/event, our leaders make us look like fools and/or cowards by failing every single time to get a common policy on paper.

What the hell is wrong with the EU these days? For decades we've been working towards a united Europe. For decades we've been more or less on the same page (except for the UK then) and made progress to achieve that goal. But when the transition was made from a common market (EEC) to what was supposed to become a political and military entity as well (EU), the bubble bursts and the European dream seems to be more distant than ever. The most blatant example of that downfall was the European Constitution tragi-comedy (for those who are not up to speed with that, here's some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Constitution).

I don't get it. The way I see it, a strong and united European block reaching from the Atlantic to the Caucasus has nothing but advantages. To sum up a few:

• instead of being frustrated that even big countries like Germany and France don't matter when push comes to shove on the international scene, we could be one of the top 3 super powers on a global scale.
• instead of being treated by the rest of the world as the reserve troups of the US, we could have had a military which wouldn't be the largest, but certainly one of the fastest when it comes to deployment of means.
• instead of forming a common block with the US against terrorism and wiping out fundamentalism once and for all, our intelligence services fuck up by not cooperating nor exchanging information. Hell, the CIA even uses our territory and airports to detain and transport prisoners and gets away with it...
• instead of teaming up with countries like the US to prevent the Chinese economy to colonize our markets, we waste time on supporting industries which aren't profitable the way they are now (like agriculture for example).

And I can go on like that for a few pages... But it doesn't make any difference anyway. No matter how much Europeans and indirectly the international community would profit from a united Europe, the water seems to be too deep. "Seems", not "is".

So what's keeping us from getting our shit together then? Could it be that:

• Bush made it clear during his first term that he didn't want a united Europe and didn't hide his intentions to slow down or even stop this evolution? He did a great job dividing the union in two camps before and during the war in Iraq by ignoring the European Commission and negotiating one on one with the most influential countries...
• our leaders are ego trippers desperately trying to be the prima donna in the media rather than to take mutual action?
• the organisation of the European institutions isn't democratic enough? The Commission (whose members are not elected by the citizens) has more than once overruled the European Parliament (whose members are directly elected).
• the way the European institutions function isn't transparrent enough? When I drive to work I pass by one European institution HQ after another. Big anonymous glass towers filled with anonymous people. What they do all day? I haven't got a friggin clue and neither has the rest of the Europeans I guess...
• most people still believe that they will lose their own identity in a united Europe? The stereotypical bullshit about the EU becoming the United States of Europe in other words...
• the expansion to the East was too fast, too massive and too soon? I mean, what was the point of admitting for instance Romania as a member anyway?
• the EU actually taking Turkey's request to become a member seriously just to get an anti Arab buffer into place? Yeah, let's just forget about the Turks still occupying a part of Cyprus, violating human rights on a massive scale, suppressing the freedom of speech and press...

And I can go on like that for pages as well... But I won't

Discuss.

[thesightless]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

pissing contest from post ww2 re-ordering IMHO. and not between governments, but social/ethnic groups and general ideas. some countries want a US modeled democracy, others want more socialist ideas. and italy wants to have fun. greece wants beastiality for the sheep.

[toasty]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

The benefits of joining together are obvious. As for why it remains so divided, I can only offer this observation: as a guy who isn't from that part of the world and truly on the outside looking in, I've had the sense that there is a lot of national pride based upon centuries of history in some cases, and countries aren't willing to give up enough of their identities and autonomy to have it truly be a powerful union.

Is this an oversimplification? Probably. Moreover, this is based upon my discussions with folks through my travels, and I certainly would not attempt to seriously extrapolate those conversations over a beer or two into having my thumb on the pulse of European culture. This is just my sense, take it for what it is worth.

[KinKyJ]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

The benefits of joining together are obvious. As for why it remains so divided, I can only offer this observation: as a guy who isn't from that part of the world and truly on the outside looking in, I've had the sense that there is a lot of national pride based upon centuries of history in some cases, and countries aren't willing to give up enough of their identities and autonomy to have it truly be a powerful union.

I think the fear of losing identity is one of the main reasons for the internal resistance, yes.

However, it's based on the misconception that the union will be organised like the US. Crap of course. The European countries are too different from eachother for the US model ever to be implemented. The point is that we're not heading for that direction at all, it's only the sceptics who keep spreading this bullshit. Countries will keep their identity and borders. The only thing that changes is that there will be a transfer of certain (and certainly not all) competences like foreign policy for instance.

As for pride... Well, one of the most important expressions of national pride is the national currency of a country. Or better "was" since we gave up our Deutsch Marks, French Francs, Spanish Pesos and what not for the Euro. There has been a lot of bitching prior to the transistion, but once it was implemented, the currency got adapted within a few months. Nobody cares about the old coins anymore. So in other words "national pride" imo is rather an excuse than a valid argument in reality...

[Jenks]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

The benefits of joining together are obvious. As for why it remains so divided, I can only offer this observation: as a guy who isn't from that part of the world and truly on the outside looking in, I've had the sense that there is a lot of national pride based upon centuries of history in some cases, and countries aren't willing to give up enough of their identities and autonomy to have it truly be a powerful union.

Nail.

Head.

Bang.

[Jenks]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

Since we're on the subject of European countries (and this probably warrants a different thread, but...eh) - the most fascinating thing to me about the land over the pond is the Russians.

This is going to sound odd, especially coming from an American, but i dig Putin. I don't necessarily agree with everything he does, i just like the way he carries himself, and appreciate his straight forwardness. He seemingly has zero fear, and doesn't appear to give a fucking rats ass what anyone thinks. Shoots from the hip, so to speak. Very charismatic. Yeah yeah, he's dealing with Iran, North Korea, China, etc etc...aka- the highest bidder...but for whatever reason, i'd like to have a beer with that guy.

[KinKyJ]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

Since we're on the subject of European countries (and this probably warrants a different thread, but...eh) - the most fascinating thing to me about the land over the pond is the Russians.

This is going to sound odd, especially coming from an American, but i dig Putin. I don't necessarily agree with everything he does, i just like the way he carries himself, and appreciate his straight forwardness. He seemingly has zero fear, and doesn't appear to give a fucking rats ass what anyone thinks. Shoots from the hip, so to speak. Very charismatic. Yeah yeah, he's dealing with Iran, North Korea, China, etc etc...aka- the highest bidder...but for whatever reason, i'd like to have a beer with that guy.

I think this needs a new thread too Jenks as there's a lot to say about Putin.

One of the things is his repect for democracy. Little story from not so long ago: Yukos was a petroleum company in Russia which, until recently, was controlled by Russian billionaire Mikhail Khodorkovsky and a number of prominent Russian businessmen. It was even one of the largest private companies in its sector. All went well until Khodorkovsky got political ambitions. This made him a rival to Putin. Not long after he was accused of tax fraud, imprisoned and sent to Siberia. Other businessmen fled Russia. On August 1, 2006, a Russian court declared Yukos bankrupt. That's how Putin deals with political rivals.

As for respect for human rights, this should give you an idea how he thinks about that: http://www.hrw.org/europe/russia.php And freedom of press... Yeah well, that's a joke in Russia.

Making Bush look like a moron on the G8 summit isn't enough for me to have a beer with that semi-dictator.

[Jenks]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

Yes, i'm familiar with his tatics, hence:

I don't necessarily agree with everything he does,

Anyway, fine, skip the beer, you can meet Putin and me later for some hash.

[unkownartist]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

tbh the way my coutries government has dealt with this whole eu thing has been quite embarasing, i think the majour stumbling point about the eu becoming "one" has to be the wealth thing or in this case currency, i dont know the in and outs of this argument so i will now stfu in my usual manour

[Jenks]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

^Good point...

I knew a lot of Czech people, and when the Czechs joined the EU, they feared it because a lot of them would be instantly poor with the Koruna so much lower than the Euro. But joining the EU was a necessary step to progress as a country. Double edged sword.

[thesightless]

Re: What's keeping Europe divided?

hopefully one day, europe and north america can unite, if not under a common law, at least under a respectability for each governments methods and ideals, knowing full well that the respect offered is repect gained. it can and should happen if anyone cares about the economy, planet, and people.