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I started replying to this remark made by chuck, but as I went along, I thought it's actually an interesting element to discuss even though it's often ignored...
Actually we're the ones to blame for he fact that extremists can recruit so easily on our own turf. For years we've sucked judaist dick (mind you, not an anti-semite statement) and treated the islam like some exotic, not to be taken seriously and utterly retarded religion. We didn't do any effort to even try to understand and when muslims in our countries wanted mosques, we've let them organise themselves themself. Like a state within the state if you want.
Apart from that (and I speak for the EU now) we've imported a lot of labour from the ME and Africa to do our dirty work (mining etc), but never bothered to try to integrate them into our society, teach them our values, our language, ... On the contrary even: when the mines closed, we've started to treat them like a threat for our own job market.
Result of the above: a large community living for decades in our countries. Not in our society, but alongside of it. Not geographically spread, but concentrated in "ghettos" in our cities. Not having access to the same job and training opportunities, but in general limited to blue collar work. Not culturally accepted, but socially stigmatised. Combine all these factors and it will come as no surprise that there a group within this community which reacts like: "Oh, even though we've lived here for decades and share the same nationality, you guys still discriminate us and laugh at our habits? Fine, fuck you and yours, we'll stick with our own too." That's what I hear when I talk with friends with Moroccan roots. Especially a lot of young people who have a degree and speak the language fluently react this way because they feel humiliated and betrayed. Frustrations ? gogo in other words.
And to top it off, all of a sudden an anti-islam mentality gets blasted through the mass media, redefining every muslim as a (potential) terrorist or at least a follower of a "backward religion" in comparison with the superior Western civilisation. That's one of the reasons I always flame those who start generalising in one direction or another. Try to imagine what it feels like to be a social paria for all your life. Are you in that place? Now imagine that you're seen like a sheep humping, sand sucking, suicide bombing retard by everyone around you. Imo this generalising does more damage than we actually realise. For those who understand Dutch: go have a look at the forums on Marokko.nl. A lot of the postings are macho bullshit, but it's shocking to see how some young people see the world around them these days. And once again: that anger and agression has nothing to do with being muslim. On a few occasions I tried to fight them with their own weapons and quoted passages from the Qu'oraan. You'd expect that to have some impact, but no, not at all... It just got ignored. I rest my case...
There's your potential: angry and frustrated people who have had an education, are litterate, speak the local language and are familiar with the way we do things here. Imo, that's a pool the CIA would love to fish in for inflitrants. But others are catching the fish in the pond and with great ease even. Why? Read on...
Since we never bothered about "them muslims", we (I mean the state, police, ...) have little or no clue at all of what goes on inside mosques. We don't know even know what an iman actually does and what his "job description" is. Why should we? "Them muslims" are hauling in their own imams from abroad, so we don't have to care about that either. Ignorance is bliss... and fatal in this situation.
In reality a lot of extremist imans find their way to a "western mosque", which to them is Disneyland. Hardly any supervision and even if there is, speeching in Arabic or Berber prevents locals from understanding what you're telling your fellow believers. Can it get any better than that? I don't think so...
Mind you, when recruiting in the West, the religion is less important than in the classic recruiting areas. Imo the incentives here are
- building a propper identity, rather be a social schizo
- belonging to a powerful community, rather than to the 2nd rank citizens
- being feared and respected instead of being stigmatised
- wanting to get even with those who treat you like shit
- ...
I'm not saying they're entitled to that or that radicalising is the way at all btw, just pointing out a few things.
Imo the only way to stop extremists from recruiting "high profile" terrorists is to treat the religion and its community of believers like we treat any other world religion: with respect and healthy curiousity.
During the past few years/months the Belgian authorities have been working on the concept of organising official courses for imans in our own country. That way the influx of radical elements is largely blocked and you have a better view of who's spreading what message.
A few weeks ago I heard that the the members of the EU decided at a summit to follow that example and try to get such a system going in every EU state. Finally our representatives use at least a part of their brains...
Actually we're the ones to blame for he fact that extremists can recruit so easily on our own turf. For years we've sucked judaist dick (mind you, not an anti-semite statement) and treated the islam like some exotic, not to be taken seriously and utterly retarded religion. We didn't do any effort to even try to understand and when muslims in our countries wanted mosques, we've let them organise themselves themself. Like a state within the state if you want.
Apart from that (and I speak for the EU now) we've imported a lot of labour from the ME and Africa to do our dirty work (mining etc), but never bothered to try to integrate them into our society, teach them our values, our language, ... On the contrary even: when the mines closed, we've started to treat them like a threat for our own job market.
Result of the above: a large community living for decades in our countries. Not in our society, but alongside of it. Not geographically spread, but concentrated in "ghettos" in our cities. Not having access to the same job and training opportunities, but in general limited to blue collar work. Not culturally accepted, but socially stigmatised. Combine all these factors and it will come as no surprise that there a group within this community which reacts like: "Oh, even though we've lived here for decades and share the same nationality, you guys still discriminate us and laugh at our habits? Fine, fuck you and yours, we'll stick with our own too." That's what I hear when I talk with friends with Moroccan roots. Especially a lot of young people who have a degree and speak the language fluently react this way because they feel humiliated and betrayed. Frustrations ? gogo in other words.
And to top it off, all of a sudden an anti-islam mentality gets blasted through the mass media, redefining every muslim as a (potential) terrorist or at least a follower of a "backward religion" in comparison with the superior Western civilisation. That's one of the reasons I always flame those who start generalising in one direction or another. Try to imagine what it feels like to be a social paria for all your life. Are you in that place? Now imagine that you're seen like a sheep humping, sand sucking, suicide bombing retard by everyone around you. Imo this generalising does more damage than we actually realise. For those who understand Dutch: go have a look at the forums on Marokko.nl. A lot of the postings are macho bullshit, but it's shocking to see how some young people see the world around them these days. And once again: that anger and agression has nothing to do with being muslim. On a few occasions I tried to fight them with their own weapons and quoted passages from the Qu'oraan. You'd expect that to have some impact, but no, not at all... It just got ignored. I rest my case...
There's your potential: angry and frustrated people who have had an education, are litterate, speak the local language and are familiar with the way we do things here. Imo, that's a pool the CIA would love to fish in for inflitrants. But others are catching the fish in the pond and with great ease even. Why? Read on...
Since we never bothered about "them muslims", we (I mean the state, police, ...) have little or no clue at all of what goes on inside mosques. We don't know even know what an iman actually does and what his "job description" is. Why should we? "Them muslims" are hauling in their own imams from abroad, so we don't have to care about that either. Ignorance is bliss... and fatal in this situation.
In reality a lot of extremist imans find their way to a "western mosque", which to them is Disneyland. Hardly any supervision and even if there is, speeching in Arabic or Berber prevents locals from understanding what you're telling your fellow believers. Can it get any better than that? I don't think so...
Mind you, when recruiting in the West, the religion is less important than in the classic recruiting areas. Imo the incentives here are
- building a propper identity, rather be a social schizo
- belonging to a powerful community, rather than to the 2nd rank citizens
- being feared and respected instead of being stigmatised
- wanting to get even with those who treat you like shit
- ...
I'm not saying they're entitled to that or that radicalising is the way at all btw, just pointing out a few things.
Imo the only way to stop extremists from recruiting "high profile" terrorists is to treat the religion and its community of believers like we treat any other world religion: with respect and healthy curiousity.
During the past few years/months the Belgian authorities have been working on the concept of organising official courses for imans in our own country. That way the influx of radical elements is largely blocked and you have a better view of who's spreading what message.
A few weeks ago I heard that the the members of the EU decided at a summit to follow that example and try to get such a system going in every EU state. Finally our representatives use at least a part of their brains...
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