my incindiary comment of the day

[thesightless]

dude, im sorry, and this goes especially out to kinky, i know its gonna piss you off. probably miroslav too. sorry again.

but


EDIT.............second thoughts here............... lets just say i find the religion despciable at its heart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance

i heard about the law, but never knew the name. but now the parties within the country are fighting against reforming this law....... fuck that. these people who stand behind keeping this law , and i dont give a damn what thier beleifs are, should be shot dead. no trial, no attempt at understanding, just shot dead. fuck.........its disgusting.

[Lorn]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Disgusting stuff...

[thesightless]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

exactly, and the fact that the people there are fighting to prevent a return to the anglo-saxon based law (law of every country not controlled by an imam/sheik/or cleric), makes me think there is more to the region than militants that give it a bad name.

basically, if a woman is raped, and there arent 4 men who witnessed penetration, the woman can be hung for adultry...sick

[Lorn]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Its this kind of stuff that makes people like us make generalizations about an entire culture. Truly horrific and I hope it is only isolated pockets of fanatics who follow these laws, because if it is wide spread I can only shudder in horror at the outcome of confrontation, which seems to be inevitable in this day and age.

[thesightless]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

nope. its a national law that was imposed when the country islamicized 30 or so years ago...... the fact that the people there are fighting the gov'ts attempt to reform it..... SICK.

[Lorn]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5337752.stm

Here is an article about this

[thesightless]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

you know what, just give them back hussein, and put a border fence around everything between greece, russia and india.

[AntonyM]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

One culture
is in the 21st century AD
the other 21st century BC
Hopefully this ordinance will go the way of the Dodo
At least people are getting pissed about it
I had no idea the ordinance even existed
The process may be slow at time
but enlightenment is the key

[Lorn]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

^^Good point about changes being slow

[KinKyJ]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Sean, what pisses me off is not your opinion, but the fact that a guy with a brains and a sharp opinion like you is too blind/dumb/something else to see the difference between a religion and those who speak/act in its name. Or to say it like it is: abuse it at will.

The Qur'an clearly states that man and woman are equal. Yes, the man is the head of the family, but with that authority comes the obligation and responsability to honor his wife, protect her and take care of her.

"... And live honorably with them. If you don't love them, you don't love something in which Allah has put a lot of goodness." (Qur'an 4:19, free translation)

There are plenty of guidings like this to find in the Qur'an, but I'm not gonna bother searching and citing them all...

That's the theory. Sadly men seem to have a gene which forces them to seek domination over others by all means. And in general women are the first ones to take that "friendly fire." In all cultures, religions and civilisations this has been the case. Just think of the Inquisition and the witch hunting for example. Or less drastic and less ancient history: the fact that women still get paid less than men for doing the same job.

As for the Hudood Ordinance, well of course it's disgusting. But I'm sure that you'll agree that - when having read the above excerpt from the Qur'an - it's also very "un-muslim". So when then is it that shit like this is still carried out in the name of Allah? Not because the islam is a barbaric religion, it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with Sharia. I'll explain...

Sharia (and not "the" Sharia) is the legal framework within which public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It's often thought that all muslims live by the Sharia rules, but this is a misconception. All muslims live by the rules set out by Allah and his prophet (basicly the Qur'an in other words) whereas only muslims living in islamic states are subjected to Sharia.

What I'm getting at is that it has certain laws which are regarded as divinely ordained, concrete and timeless for all relevant situations (for example, the ban against drinking liquor as an intoxicant). But it also has certain laws which are extracted based on principles established by Islamic lawyers and judges (Mujtahidun). It's the latter source of litigation which makes the Hudood Ordinance possible together with any other measure which the "elite" deems necessary to keep a nation under the thumb. Keep your citizens dumb and affraid and they will do whatever you want. Yet another principle which has stood the test of time.

So yes Sean, the Hudood Ordinance is disgusting and I even dare to say blasphemy from a purely "Qur'anic" perspective. But bashing a world religion because some fools abuse it to dictate and kill people is just as disgusting if you ask me.

Don't take this as "try reading a book before you open your piehole", but you really should do some honest research on the islam I think. Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is power (the latter is a principle which is stressed very much in the first part of the Qur'an btw).

So final conclusion: religions aren't "retarded" or "digusting", human interpretations and the ideologies which come from that sometimes are.

[Lorn]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Well thought out and worded reply Kinky.

[AntonyM]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Great points Kinky

[KinKyJ]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Thanks guys, I'm just trying to share some factual information in order to put an end to a few prejudices which hurt both muslims as non-muslims.

I admit I had a pretty fucked up perception of islam as well in the past. But that changed when Erzina told me she's muslima. She and her friends made me realise that not all muslims are hardlining twits in robes or burkas. Actually, the more I read (about) the Qur'an, the more common grounds I find with christianity.

[thesightless]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

points are well taken, but it doesnt change my mind about it, the religion has nearly eliminated one other religion, is on the way to killing off buddism, the people who live where the religion is dominant are seething at the teeth to kill jews, thier heroes are mass murderers, and they continue to expand via the sword. oh yeah, cats and dogs are now banned in suadi arabia b/c they show western influence.

they(those in the ME) view erzina as a sinner as she doesnt follow quaran law above that of her home country (i forgot!) she is marrying a non muslim, she embraces western influence, and mixes with men. jsut look at her parents.

she is the exception, not them. they are controlling, violent and the population there stands behind them, or do we need to watch more parades where they wrap children in martyr clothing and prepare them for jihad.

im sorry, this last week has pushed me beyond the ''its only militants'' POV.

you have nasrallah on tv saying he wont hadn over those soldiers unless isreal releases a murderer b/c he is a hero within the muslim community.

there are signs of progress, currently notable in lebanon. the people in the north voiced out agaisnt hezz, the govt allowed isreal to operate , they got syria out, and they just helped the embassy staff. but in general, its fucked, they are fucked, and not worth the lives, effort or money, let them revert back to 2000BC. shit the king of bahrain was just sued for kidnapping kids and using them as slaves........

[KinKyJ]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

points are well taken, but it doesnt change my mind about it, the religion has nearly eliminated one other religion, is on the way to killing off buddism, the people who live where the religion is dominant are seething at the teeth to kill jews, thier heroes are mass murderers, and they continue to expand via the sword. oh yeah, cats and dogs are now banned in suadi arabia b/c they show western influence.

what religion are you talking about (the nearly eliminated one I mean)?

Listen, it's like that one-liner "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Same goes for religion.

If you think it's right to say that the islam is responsible for killings and what not, I think it's fair to say that christianity is responsible for the death of 6 milion jews during WWII since the Nazis had the words "Got mit uns" on their belt. It isn't a secret either that the Vatican had close (but secret) relations with Hitler as well. And don't get me started on the cruelties carried out in the name of the Lord when we colonized Africa...

Most blatant example are of course the crusades. When charging on muslims, the crusaders yelled "God wants it." The muslims from their side yelled "Inch' Allah" (God wants it).

Of course the above is bullshit because the Bible doesn't command us to slaughter jews and muslims or abuse black people. But guess what? Neither does the Qur'an.

As for your statements about Erzina: I've copy pasted this thread and sent it to her. I think she's in a better position to give an intelligent answer to what you wrote.

you have nasrallah on tv saying he wont hadn over those soldiers unless isreal releases a murderer b/c he is a hero within the muslim community.

1. The murderer you're talking about is a hero in the HEZBOLLAH community, which - like I've already explained in another thread - might call itself "muslim", but sins against the principle that muslims can't kill other muslims (Qur'an).
2. Nasrallah doesn't give a shit about that guy being muslim or not. He's just trying to act tough towards the outside world as well as his own people after being humiliated by the Israeli army.
3. The kidnapping of the soldiers nor the imprissonement of the Lebanese guy have anything to do with religion, but everything with politics.

there are signs of progress, currently notable in lebanon. the people in the north voiced out agaisnt hezz, the govt allowed isreal to operate , they got syria out, and they just helped the embassy staff. but in general, its fucked, they are fucked, and not worth the lives, effort or money, let them revert back to 2000BC. shit the king of bahrain was just sued for kidnapping kids and using them as slaves........

Yup, there are indeed signs that the country wants to progress. So why do you say they're not worth the trouble then? Because you think Arabs are an inferior race or because you want the fundamentalists to gain another stronghold?

As for the king of Bahrein: if there's a link between islam and enslaving children, then there's also a link between christianity and child prostitution in South East Asia.

Once again, try to see the difference between what is really happening and what influencials from whatever side want you to think is happening.