Pataky Pal does exist

[toasty]

Re: God does exist

Do you consider evidence left behind as factual proof?

My answer is yes and here is why:
I can know someone was previously in an area I just passed by smelling perfume or cologne. I do not have to physically see the person to know that someone was just there.
Evidence is in our lives everyday. We use it to convict criminals, to know if someone did their job at work etc.

Of course it can be used as factual proof. The question is, "proof of what?"

If I walk into a room and smell perfume, that means that someone wearing perfume was in the room before me, probably in the fairly recent past. It does not mean that a specific person was in the room. It doesn't mean that God saw to it that the room smelled like perfume for my arrival.

I suspect that you intend to present various evidence of God in the world around us -- things that you think couldn't possibly exist without divine intervention, things that science hasn't completely wrapped its collective head around yet. The fact that science hasn't come up with an explanation yet, though, isn't affirmative proof of anything.

Looking back through time, there are limitless examples of things that once confused us but that we now understand. We once tried to cure people of their illnesses by bloodletting, FFS.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I want to emphasize that this doesn't mean that God doesn't exist -- it just means that you're not going to have any luck proving it empirically. It is a matter of faith, and any argument to the contrary is going to be hopelessly circular. Already, most every point you've advanced presumes the existence of God which, of course, is exactly what you're trying to establish.

Please, just believe in God, be happy, and quit approaching this like it's science.

[speciale]

Re: God does exist

[hulkhuss]

Re: God does exist

I wish this thread would die

God will not allow that to happen

[hulkhuss]

Re: God does exist

Live Thread Live!!!

[speciale]

Re: God does exist

Live Thread Live!!!

[speciale]

Re: God does exist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

[rainman]

Re: God does exist

if this thread dies it will be born again. jk

I hate to sound negative or that I do or do not beleive in god, or any religon for that matter, but I fail to see how you are planning to prove to anyone the existence of god. I fully understand that consiousness = self awarness and that there things that we as mere human beings cannot possibly fathom; however if we cannot fathom such things how can we possibly begin to understand enough to prove gods existence?

If you can prove gods existence in this thread I will be truly amazed. I consider myself a realist rather than religous (not saying I dont beleive in god because I can neither deny or prove his existence) I can only determine to be true what I can see, taste, touch, smell and hear. (again with the consiousness)

Good luck with your quest and hope this doesnt turn out the way I suspect it will (for everyone involved as these discusions always end on a bad note, especially when you have such an eclectic group of individuals from all walks of life and all countries) this should get interesting

[cowardly dj]

Re: God does exist

First we need to establish some facts and go from there.

1. We exists.

There are only two possibilities that accompany this fact.
1) We were created.
A )If creation is true then who or what created us will need to be established and all other claims proven false.

2) We are a result of some other method of existing commonly know as evolution.
A) If evolution is true then the method needs to be established and all other claims proven false.

I submit to this examination of existence that we were created.
I submit to this examination of existence that creation is a result of Jehovah the God of the Bible.

As the burden of proof falls on me I will be presenting statements, and claims from the Bible as it's biggest claim is that it is the inerrant word of Jehovah from here on out known as God.

If the Bible can be proven to be factual and infallable as it claims it is then inherently it will show itself to be the word of God through it's self-proclaimed truths therefore leaving God as the creator He says He is.

If it can be found to contain proven errors then it is not the infallable word of God and will be dismissed therefore dismissing the posibility that God is the creator He says He is.

I will be submitting this in parts as I have time and to also allow you to post any questions or comments.

Let us begin.

When it comes to the Bible no subject is more significant than the subject of the inspiration of the Bible. Rejection of the Bible's inspiration equals rejection of the Bible itself because it claims to be peculiarly and uniquely revelaed, inspired, and delivered to men by God. If the Bible makes this claim then in it's pages there must be infallable proof of this claim.

First lets look at the Bible's claims of it's inpiration in order to get an understanding of it's claim.

Inspiration As Claimed By The Scriptures

"The Bible's calims about itself involve three important words: inspiration, plenary, and verbal. One does not read much of the Bible before he come to understand that it claims for itself the very concepts of origin and quality embodied in these three words." (Dub McClish)

The word inspiration is found twice in the King James Version of the Bible. Job 32:8 reads, "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." 2 Timothy 3:16 reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." In Job 32:8 "inspiration" comes from the Hebrew word neshamah, which means "to breathe". In 2 timothy 3:16 the word inspiration comes from word theopnuestos,which means "God breathed", or "breathed by God". Paul, the writer of 2 Timothy, is claiming that the written scriptures are a divine product. "...the Biblical writers are called inspired as breathed into by the Holy Spirit, so that the product of their activities transcends human powers and becomes Divinely authoitative. Inspiration is, therefore, usually defined as a supernatural influence exerted on the sacred writers by the Spirit of God, by virtue of which their writings are given Divine trustorthiness." (Benjamin Warfield)
"According to 2 Timothy 3:16 what is inspired is precisely the Biblical writings. Inspiratiion is a work of God terminating, not in the men who were to write Scripture(as if, having given them an idea of what to say, God left them to themselves to find a way of saying it) but in the actual written product. It is Scripture, the written text, that is God-breathed." (J.I.Parker)

Let me sum this up. According to the Bible's claims, God is the only author of every single word in the Bible. Although he used imperfect men to pen the Scriptures, these men were preserved from error in every respect in everything they wrote.

I will present evidence for the Bible's claim of inspiration later but for now this serves as a starting point for the discussion.

[floridaorange]

Re: God does exist

Much greater minds than ours have struggled intellectually, scientifically, psychologically, what have you, over this subject, and along with most of the worlds greatest philosophers and scientists, most all eventually agree that there is such thing as "GOD."

[day_for_night]

Re: God does exist

First we need to establish some facts and go from there.

1. We exists.

There are only two possibilities that accompany this fact.
1) We were created.
A )If creation is true then who or what created us will need to be established and all other claims proven false.

2) We are a result of some other method of existing commonly know as evolution.
A) If evolution is true then the method needs to be established and all other claims proven false.

I submit to this examination of existence that we were created.
I submit to this examination of existence that creation is a result of Jehovah the God of the Bible.

As the burden of proof falls on me I will be presenting statements, and claims from the Bible as it's biggest claim is that it is the inerrant word of Jehovah from here on out known as God.

If the Bible can be proven to be factual and infallable as it claims it is then inherently it will show itself to be the word of God through it's self-proclaimed truths therefore leaving God as the creator He says He is.

If it can be found to contain proven errors then it is not the infallable word of God and will be dismissed therefore dismissing the posibility that God is the creator He says He is.

I will be submitting this in parts as I have time and to also allow you to post any questions or comments.

Let us begin.

When it comes to the Bible no subject is more significant than the subject of the inspiration of the Bible. Rejection of the Bible's inspiration equals rejection of the Bible itself because it claims to be peculiarly and uniquely revelaed, inspired, and delivered to men by God. If the Bible makes this claim then in it's pages there must be infallable proof of this claim.

First lets look at the Bible's claims of it's inpiration in order to get an understanding of it's claim.

Inspiration As Claimed By The Scriptures

"The Bible's calims about itself involve three important words: inspiration, plenary, and verbal. One does not read much of the Bible before he come to understand that it claims for itself the very concepts of origin and quality embodied in these three words." (Dub McClish)

The word inspiration is found twice in the King James Version of the Bible. Job 32:8 reads, "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." 2 Timothy 3:16 reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." In Job 32:8 "inspiration" comes from the Hebrew word neshamah, which means "to breathe". In 2 timothy 3:16 the word inspiration comes from word theopnuestos,which means "God breathed", or "breathed by God". Paul, the writer of 2 Timothy, is claiming that the written scriptures are a divine product. "...the Biblical writers are called inspired as breathed into by the Holy Spirit, so that the product of their activities transcends human powers and becomes Divinely authoitative. Inspiration is, therefore, usually defined as a supernatural influence exerted on the sacred writers by the Spirit of God, by virtue of which their writings are given Divine trustorthiness." (Benjamin Warfield)
"According to 2 Timothy 3:16 what is inspired is precisely the Biblical writings. Inspiratiion is a work of God terminating, not in the men who were to write Scripture(as if, having given them an idea of what to say, God left them to themselves to find a way of saying it) but in the actual written product. It is Scripture, the written text, that is God-breathed." (J.I.Parker)

Let me sum this up. According to the Bible's claims, God is the only author of every single word in the Bible. Although he used imperfect men to pen the Scriptures, these men were preserved from error in every respect in everything they wrote.

I will present evidence for the Bible's claim of inspiration later but for now this serves as a starting point for the discussion.

pine tree...like arguing with a pine tree.

[Kat]

Re: God does exist

not again PLEASE

[KinKyJ]

Re: God does exist

1. The chance of having two Tuesdays in one week is ten times as big as the chance that this thread is ever going to produce any valid proof for any of the two camps.

2. Religion is a private thing. Keep it that way and show some tollerance. It doesn't matter what you call your god: a clean conscience is far more worth than living by the rules set out by whoever.

3. CDJ, apply for a missionary post in the Amazonian Jungle. You'll have more success there than here. Actually, the more I read your posts, the more I feel like converting to islam. It's fanatism and tunnel vision like yours that turned me away from the catholic church in the first place.

This thread is absolutely useless. How about discussing spirituality rather than trying to convert infidels and venting bullshit?

[cowardly dj]

Re: God does exist

1. The chance of having two Tuesdays in one week is ten times as big as the chance that this thread is ever going to produce any valid proof for any of the two camps.

2. Religion is a private thing. Keep it that way and show some tollerance. It doesn't matter what you call your god: a clean conscience is far more worth than living by the rules set out by whoever.

3. CDJ, apply for a missionary post in the Amazonian Jungle. You'll have more success there than here. Actually, the more I read your posts, the more I feel like converting to islam. It's fanatism and tunnel vision like yours that turned me away from the catholic church in the first place.

This thread is absolutely useless. How about discussing spirituality rather than trying to convert infidels and venting bullshit?

I am not trying to convert anyone. It is people like you that ridicule me day after day, post after post and for what? Not because I have done or said anything insulting to warrant such treatment. In nearly every thread I post in no matter what the topic religion is brought up and it is not by me. Then when I defend my position on whatever my comment is people post even more insults and basically treat me like less of a person because I use God as my basis for life.

I think you and a number of others should take a long look in the mirror as to why you insult as you do. I am fully aware (probably even more aware than most of you) as to why you hurl the insults at me. It is simply because you do not like God or the Bible, not because you do not like me.

Lets examine why people do not like God for a minute and I am willing to guess that you and many others here will fall into this category. God says do not drink alcohol. People like to drink alcohol so if they were to follow God they would have to give that up. God says do not use profane language. People like to use profanity in their everyday conversations to express their thoughts make jokes etc. People who follow God have to give that up also. How about drugs, dancing, and even promiscuity. That is the biggest problem people have with God. If you follow God you are to have one partner for life. Lets face it, people are not willing to give things up to follow God. Simply put God has rules and prohibitions and most people are tired of rules and prohibitions so they dismiss any and everything about God to ease their conscious. You have rules in your life every second of it and it does get to be tiresome. Do this, dont do that, go here, take this, stop that and whatever you would like to add here.


You have no idea who I am other than a follower of God. Sure my comments are based on a beliefe system and you should know that yours are as well. Have I ever insulted your system of beliefs you or anyone elses for that matter? The resounding answer is no.

I am not the one with the problem here. All I am doing is participating in a forum just as you and everyone else here. People have said in other threads that I should not post anything if it does not apply to music and yet they participate in threads about "nonsense", terrorism, jokes, and the list could go on. That is what is called a double standard. Lets talk about whatever we want but not let people talk about religion.

It boils down to this. As long as I am a member of this board I have as much right to post whatever comments, and toipcs I choose as equally as everyone else here. When you click on the thread and post you are participating as well even if it is to insult, it is still participation.

I hold no bad feeling to you or anyone else that insutls me because as I stated earlier it is not me you insult is is God and the system He stands for. You know that and I know that.

I enjoy talking about this with other people and reading their comments on God. I encourage you and everyone else to continue to participate and post comments and I will continue to sift through the insults and ridicule.

I will be posting a vast amount of information here and it willget very interesting in the near futuer. It will be a great debate and much wisdon will be put to the test for everyone who participates in this thread.

Sit back relax and be a little more tolerant of what other people use as their basis for life. You might find some things to be more interesting if you see them as simply knowledge and not see them as an attempt to change your life.

[Dzone]

Re: God does exist

Go out and check a documentary call " who Wrote the Bible"

[speciale]

Re: God does exist