Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

[rubyraks]

I've always been fond of the Dutch and their culture of tolerance and assimilation.

There have been quite a few major incidents that have caught not only the Dutch public's attention, but also the world's over the last few years, ie. the murders of the filmmaker Van Gogh and the politician Fortuyn.

As a result of these events, I'm curious as to how the the country's attitude towards their muslim immigrants and culture may have changed? Do they begin to question their policy of tolerance in creating a multicultural society?

How has the rest of Europe responded to issues similar to these in their own countries, ie. bombings in England/Spain, riots in France, etc.?

Unfortunately, being here in the US, we have very limited exposure to European attitudes (that's why I have to travel so damn much ).

[thesightless]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

i have been following that BBC show on late night here in NY about europeans and islam regarding froced integration. and i just asked kinky about this via PM (going to the source)

and then, out of nowhere i saw the tunisia report on a complete headscarf ban and how the human rights groups were screaming about it. its a catch 22 all the way. handling certain aspects of societal groupings and the other side of encouraging a uniform way of thinking. i was thinking how can a human rights group go nuts over the scarf ban, but yet, not say a thing on how other groups are restricted in the middle east. (like how a non muslim isnt allowed within mecca and other rights they lose by being who they are)..

fucked.up.world.not.getting.better.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

In short: the riots in France don't find their roots in ethnicity, even though it's a factor. The primal source is unemployment.
You've got suburbs around the big cities full of blocks with immigrants who can't find a job. This translates into criminality, drug dealing, ... and of course the riots.

As for the Dutch: their system of integration is pretty good, but their problem is that it was politically incorrect to question it or question other cultures, that's why it failed to adapt to certain tensions (but I think Yawno can give a better picture of that).

As for Belgicum: our government pretty much sat on it's ass and did nothing to bring communities together. Hell, even the locals (Dutch speaking and French speaking part of the country) have problems living together without bullshit.

[thesightless]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

if they let you roam free, they really are sitting on thier asses.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

since it's hunting season, I suggest we shoot 'em all

[rubyraks]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

^Cheney's up for it!

[KinKyJ]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

^^^ cheney only shoots white meat, aint no good

[Yao]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

O O gimme a gun .

Short version now since I'm about to crash: the Dutch may be renowned for their tolerance, but it is that which has brought the problems of today upon us IMO. Letting people who not only think differently go about, but also the ones that actively oppose our way of life. Another one here is the fact that we now have 3rd generation Moroccans that are not accepted as Dutch (for a lack of integration), neither as Moroccans. That creates a whole class of youths that don't feel bound to any country or background, but of course there's always some sharks waiting to catch those fish astray: mostly extremist Muslims in this case. If it's not them, the dissatsifaction becomes clear by anti-social behaviour mostly.

People are increasingly getting afraid here, and the political right here (including a number of almost racist or totally racist parties) is gaining ground at the moment. People here are blaming the political left (in charge from 1994 - 2002) for the problems with immigrants right now, who prove to be less integrated than we would like. In fact, at least 40% of the Moroccans (the major group among them) indicates to be opposed to our system of morals and values.

That's a pretty shitty score to me....

[thesightless]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

weird. you want to keep open arms and embrace diversity (NY great example), but you also need to do the complete opposite in ensuring you arent allowing those whom you let in to be too aggressive in pushing thier culture and preventing each culture from coalescing together in concentrated regions and ideas. some people want the cake(pride in heritage), but dont want to be there for the veggies. (integration of common ideas and acceptance of equal footing)

wait until the stupid lawsuit from the BA stewardess begins challenging special interests laws. she had a cruxifix on her neck and was fired, but her company makes specific yeilds to hindus, muslims, and jews for thier headgear, including the veil on women. you''ll either see a lot more white people with crosses doing it out of principle and support, or an outright ban of all the shit.

[Yao]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

That lawsuit must come, BA's behaviour in this case is complete bollocks - either you prohibit ALL religious signs, or none. I'm not a Christian, but I fail to see the reason for this kind of discrimination, because that's exactly what it is.

[rubyraks]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

So in continuing this discussion, what ideas have the Europeans had in regards to dealing with their immigrant problem? Is there discussion of closing their borders, similar to the US? Have they actually discussed better ways of assimilating them? Do they find it futile to assimilate certain cultures?

[Yao]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

The debate now is mainly focusing on rooting out extremists here (sending them back, and getting legislation to sue them or get them extradited), and improving integration by foreigners. It's slowly becoming clear that letting them do their on thing and not actively monitoring the level of integration has led to a degree to a 'lost' group of immigrants that are making enclaves in our society in which they strongly hold on to their own cultural systems, in fact they are more conservative than the people in their home country these days.

What we need to do now is making clear that living here is not something to be taken for granted, but that they'll have to accept and adapt to our culture to a satisfactory degree - in that respect the US has done a far better job than Europe with it's relaxed attitude.

That is also why in november I'll be voting for a centre/right winged party rather than one of those leftist clubs that actually made it possible that a Muslim who recently applied for a job in client communications dept. with one of our biggest cities and got turned down for not wanting to shake a woman's had could sue them and WIN...we need to stop this kind of retarded self-denial here: in The Netherlands, we shake hands with both men and women. You live here, you want to work for the govt. on city level, you better f**king accept our standards, especially when going into the communications sector where you will be dealing with loads of people on a daily basis...

[thesightless]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

sadky the workd is going to see a new level of the violence and fighting that european and middle eastern lands saw when the people opted to get the religion out of governemnt once people begin truly learning about islam and critiquing every indivual beleif as to see what will be appropriate for society. im not talking about another reigning in on a peoples, but more of a slef exam of law and society that will, unavoidably, critique a religion that has given the world every reason to doubt what it says.

and just think...... the pope is about to head to turkey. wait until that shit hits the fan when christians come out to support him and muslims come out to protest him and then........ tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick

[thesightless]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

why cant people take my POV on life....

you are cool until you give reason otherwise.

[Yao]

Re: Dutch Tolerance and European Perspective

Well...i think my POV is much alike .

IMO people here should stop excusing themselves to Muslims all the time for not holding their faith, because that is what I see all around. Giving them privileges and whatnot, backtracking on quotes that don't get appreciated - f*ck that. This is a different culture, and as long as there is still respect going towards the Muslims despite the fact that we don't agree with them, they should shut up. All in all, the West is constantly trying to appease the Muslim community at the moment, but I don't see a scratch of respect coming back at us from the Middle East right now.