Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[RiseandShine]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

you French? you're quoting one of the guys I talked about in the same thread
Anyway, yes - I think democracy are distinct and I do believe it can work together. if it could not, the Church would have spoken or done something against it a long time ago

[rubyraks]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

No, not french at all...American born and bred

and what does French have to do with Karl Marx anyways?

I hear what you're saying and I think we'd both agree that in a true democracy, religion is merely another interest with voting power, but it doesn't intrinsically rule.

[RiseandShine]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

got confused, Andre Malraux said something quite similar and I got mixed up.
yes, I agree, they are both different - none are suprior to the other, just different institutions and mechanisms

[subterFUSE]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Okay...so I could completely be off the deep end with this, but this is what I am starting to think. I think that democracy was created to take power away from god. Like a teenager, always fighting the power, rebelling against figures of authority. Democracy was born from mans need to fight the totalitarianisitc control of god and the church. Where every member, was inwardly rebelling, but outwardly a devout follower and a active "foot soldier" of god. Finding blasphemers or heretics in other people so what WE do behind closed doors doesnt get found out. After years and decades an centuries passed...we slowly revolted against GOD and Religion, by changing our beliefs, ceremonies, culture, and interpretation of "God's Will", to the point where the church and state are two seperate etities. Which, if I am not mistaken, is one of the key points of democracy. So NOW what we have is people saying...screw you God, I decide whats right for me.

Well..so I believe, and like I said before, I could be waaay off the deep end with this, and I am not saying that is a factoid about ALL the people, but it could be true for a LOT of people.

I wonder what the ancient Greeks would think about that? They invented democracy. But they were very religious... Polytheistic, at that. And they were not looking to remove religion.



Getting back to the original topic, however.... can democracy survive in the Middle East?



I think the problem in Iraq is like several have pointed out here already. The Iraqi people have known nothing but tyranny and oppression for years. So we can't expect them to latch onto a completely different system overnight. But I think there is even more to this....

The USA was born out of a revolution against Britain. The people who lived here under British control took up arms, and fought for their freedom. They wanted freedom so badly, they were willing to fight and die for it. And fight and die, they did.... until the British were deafeated.

The Iraqi's did not start their revolution. They went to bed one night, with a dictator.... and woke up the next day with anarchy. While they were happy Saddam was gone... dancing in the streets and toppling statues... this feeling quickly wore off. The time for taking responsibility for their own future came... but they have not stepped up to the challenge. I think this is because they didn't start and fight this revolution on their own. They don't feel the same degree of ownership of their own destinies.

It's like when you work hard and save up your money for something you really want badly.... it means more to you than if someone just gave it to you for free. Same deal. This wasn't the Iraqi's war.... and so they don't feel the same about it.

[Santa]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I agree with subterFUSE, democracy can only be established in a country if the people do their own revolution. You cannot impose democracy, you gain it by the blood of the people that will fight the opressing government in place. Democracy is a concept that should be understood by all to be able to work.

Western countries have all made a revolution at one time against their government (monarchy at those time), because they have realised that everyone is equal and that the government should help the people and not crush them with taxes or else. Those ideas were created by free thinkers and spreaded by way of letters, books or speaking.

So if you cannot have access to information, education, you will never learn that concept. And by not knowing it exist, you will stay with what you have always know: dictatorship (can also be called monarchy, communism, empire or any based religious government)

[JahRasta]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

IF...everyone is equal....then Socialism is the way to go!

[subterFUSE]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

IF...everyone is equal....then Socialism is the way to go!

Socialism and communism only work in theory.

In order for an equal distribution of wealth to sustain a population, you must have a situation where the total wealth is vast enough that each individual's equal share is enough to support them. So.... you either need huge amounts of wealth, or a small population. Look at what happens to countries with communist economies. It never succeeds. The reason is because it can't generate enough wealth to sustain the population.

Simple fact.... Capitalism is the best economic model for creating wealth. Nothing else comes close. The USA is not a purely capitalistic economy. There are a number of government controlled entities. But the USA is the most capitalistic economy in the world.... and also the most successful.

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

ahhh, the sense of generalisation still exists on this board. You seem to know what every arab thinks.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

ahhh, the sense of generalisation still exists on this board. You seem to know what every arab thinks.

kill jew? we stole thier land, so its ours now?

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

kill jew? we stole thier land, so its ours now?

prat

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

yet, its still the truth.


PS calling me an idiot isnt going to change history. it happened, no one can debate that.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

ok, lets ignore history, and look only at today, wednesday, dec 6 2006

somalia, sudan, kazhmir, afghan moutains, west pakistan, gaza, lebanon, all have sicko groups fighting to gain power, strictly through violence, and in the places where they already have it, they wont let go. so, what date will we consider this a pattern of systematic behaviour from within groups originating from the arab lands, instead of just ''isolated incidents where thousands are killed, averaging 600 deaths a week outside of iraq"

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

sightless, arabs don't hate jews or americans, there are jews in iran, morrocco, syria and they live there like any other muslim. it's more a political issue than a religious one. Arabs don't like israeli or american policies which have not helped them over the last century.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

what have our policies been?

give you more money than god, while advocating and fighting for simple stability no matter who gets the lead? the middle east, is nothing better than a cluster fuck on a grand scale.

the major policy they hate, which isnt even an american policy at heart, is the defense of isreal. tell me why ppl shouldnt back isreal and ill apply your logic to tell you why we should. the arab policy is, if we dont get it by peace, get it by mass murder, commited in stealth and in the name of a false god. deny that, and you are about 1500 years behind the times of world events.

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

see this is the problem, you get extremist fighting extremist on both sides and then it deteriorates into an all out war. Then there's no chance in hell for peace. As i said arabs don't hate americans, just in the last 40-50 years the government had taken a turn and made some bad decisions.

Maybe if america wants peace in the middle east why don't they stop supporting Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, stop supplying israel with weapons. The money america gives to Egypt and jordan doesn't come to the people. It goes to the dictatorships ruling the countries, they buy weapons to protect themselves and to stay in power.

If america does this, arabs will stand by america and have a good relationship because if you ask neutral educated muslims they will tell you that they share the same values as americans.