Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

1. we HAVE TO help isreal, they quite literally, are a small cat in a corwd of dogs. they have every right to exist and be safe. they consistently have stopped fighting in the name of peace, only to see suicide bombings and kidnappings.

2. the three countries you mentioned to stop supporting are 3 countries who have not aggressed or openly rabble roused against isreal, moreso, they are 3 countries who openly stress peace with isreal, and for the time being with saudi arabia, are quite peaceful. watch saudi though, they are currently floating 40% unemployment in the age range of 18-30.... simply b/c islamic schooling offers nothing when it comes to real world application. and, as history tells us, when the middle eastern people arent getting what they want, violence occurs.

back to the beginning. when, will ppl realize that it is not just a small group of extremists, just look at lebanon right now. this week, hezzbollah, iran and syria have encouraged a coup. lead by hezz, they are halting activity in beruit. THIS IS THE GROUP THAT BROUGHT THE COUNTRY INTO WAR. and it isnt just a few armed militants doing it. there are thousands and thousands of supporters there. go check the news. shit, when hamas holds a rally, thousands show up. another group that has plunged its home base into disastrous consquences while thumbing its nose at the gov't, and international entities, while calling for death. i mean comon. everywhere the ''arab peace'' extends, people are dying at a rate that is not just beyond acceptable, but almost fictional.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

ill try to use this comparision, and its nothing more.

what happens if the US suddenly shifts its feelings, goes 80% to the republican party, lets terms limits go, and keeps bush aroudn for 20 years. allowing him every opportunity to rip through the middle east, and when things get weird, 200 thousand ppl show up and the white house and UN to support it. do we, the collective ppl of the US, still deserve the opinions that we have, or should things change and ppl realize our aims and goals arent exactly nice and proper on the grand scale.

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

sorry i'll have to disagree with you on all 3 points. Israel is the most powerful country in the middle east (military wise). Secondly, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia were all involved in the arab israeli conflict. Thirdly Saudi supplies hamas with more money than any other arab country.

Another completly wrong perception is that unemployment is caused by Islam. Bloody hell, thats ridiculous especially when considering Islam strongly urges people to go into education such sciences, maths etc... I really don't know where you're getting your info from.

About Hezbollah, you'll never guess who their allies in Lebanon are....well it's none other than the largest christian sect in the country that is led by Michel Aoun. And its not a coup, it's a peaceful demonstration demanding for a unity government because the current one is unconstitutional.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

iran has openly asked for a coup, read again.

egypt , jordan, and saudi all have truces in place, and unlike hamas and hexxbollah, have followed them.

not to go off on a tangent, but the single largest factor in the saudi unemployment fears is indeed, the schooling they undergo. they said it themselves, they arent schooled in anything that is truly viable when it comes to doing business outside the middle east.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5406328.stm

80% of grads have arabic history, literature and law degrees, 3 things that no even wants to see on the world stage.

and they call the gov't unconstitutional b/c for some stupid reason, they have it wrtiten that the gov't has to reflect the religions... why? they shouldnt matter. peace and stability should.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

your solution seems to be

let them keep fighting and to the victor goes the spoils

just wrong.

and are you honestly going to say isreal could defend itself against a war on all fronts?

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5406328.stm

80% of grads have arabic history, literature and law degrees, 3 things that no even wants to see on the world stage.

and they call the gov't unconstitutional b/c for some stupid reason, they have it wrtiten that the gov't has to reflect the religions... why? they shouldnt matter. peace and stability should.

Well i'm glad you brought that up. Because this is not a religious issue and even if you hear a guy in a beard claiming that muslims learn about religion and nothing else is completly wrong and goes against the teachings of islam.

I am not denying that there are some extremist in the middle east who are still living in the stone age. But these people interpret islam is a very extreme way and the majority of people disagree with it.

Secondly Hezbollah and their christian allies are demonstrating for that specific reason. Their leaders are asking "what kind of democracy is it when ruling is based on religious grounds". They are campaigning for a unity government and for a popular voting system.

The current system was drawn up by the french and the americans to appease everyone after the lebanese civil war but everyone knows that this is not way for democracy and thats what hezbollah are calling for.

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

your solution seems to be

let them keep fighting and to the victor goes the spoils

just wrong.

and are you honestly going to say isreal could defend itself against a war on all fronts?

no i'm against all wars, nobody ever wins in any war. I always said, that when you get extremists out of all sides and that includes israelis, muslims, arabs, americans....then we can talk. Otherwise every person will want his way and nothing will ever happen.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

dude, the christian group untiing with hezzbollah is more about the idea of

"the enemy of my enemy is my ally"

and its not just "some" extremists. its a region wide power grab between assholes of differeing sects of islam that dont care what they have to do to gain power and keep it.

hezzbollah only wants more power, that it. and if the poeple there are stupid enough to stand behind them they deserve every thing that comes there way the next time the group fucks with isreal and isreal reacts with a heavy hand and kills off a few hundred ppl. they just want legitimacy on the stage so that they can act with impunity.


lastly, you say the majority of the middle eastern people are against the strict teachings.... well, ill say the rest of the planet is waiting to see just that. they arent working towards that, but away from it. just look at the cartoon reactions.

saying you are the "religion of peace" and then reacting with severe violence isnt garnering any sympathy. they have proved they are the religion of mass homicide. nothing more. and i hate genrealizeing it like that, but too bad i am. yes, i fully know that there are great ppl all around, of every race and creed, but collectivly, the middle east is proving otherwise.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

your solution seems to be

let them keep fighting and to the victor goes the spoils

just wrong.

and are you honestly going to say isreal could defend itself against a war on all fronts?

Israel does have the most military might in the Middle East because of the USA. We have trained and supplied them for decades. They are also a nuclear power.

Ahmadinejad in Iran has openly called for the destruction of Israel. The same goes for Hassan Nasrallah. He not only wants to destroy Israel, but he takes it further by calling for the extermination of every Jew on Earth. He said that if all the Jews would gather in Israel, it will save him the trouble of going after them around the globe. Saddam was also anti-Israel.

I disagree with Sono's claim that hatred of Israel is the minority position among middle-easterners. I believe it is the opposite. There may be a few moderate people living in pockets around the Middle-East who yearn for a peaceful solution, but for the most part everyone hates Israel. They are taught to hate Israel from birth. Children commonly taught that Jews are not humans, but monkeys. They are taught that co-existence with Jews is a danger to Islam. Many are taught that killing Jews is a path to Heaven.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3430077.stm

On 9/11, when the TV reports spanned the globe and people learned of the attack against the USA.... millions of muslims danced in the streets. It was like they won the World Cup. I can't begin to imagine the sheer exhuberance which would follow if such an attack were leveled against Israel.

No.... I am afraid that hatred of Jews is the majority opinion in the middle east. And hatred of America is linked to our support of Israel. Without America, Israel could not defend herself.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

and quite unfortunetly, and thanks to moronic clerical teachings, most of the middle east doesnt realize that the UK is more responsible for isreal than we are, i wanna drop copies of UN resolution all over the middle east. all the US does is follow its committment to defend a fellow UN member.

[sono]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

dude, the christian group untiing with hezzbollah is more about the idea of

"the enemy of my enemy is my ally"

and its not just "some" extremists. its a region wide power grab between assholes of differeing sects of islam that dont care what they have to do to gain power and keep it.

hezzbollah only wants more power, that it. and if the poeple there are stupid enough to stand behind them they deserve every thing that comes there way the next time the group fucks with isreal and isreal reacts with a heavy hand and kills off a few hundred ppl. they just want legitimacy on the stage so that they can act with impunity.

the hate for hezbollah is totally ingrained within you, mind you, all based on misconceptions. also how about you go see what the leader of the christian group says. If you think bush and blair are close, looks at the leaders of hezbollah and the christian group. Also you seem to have a passion for israel or something as if they committ no wrong.

lastly, you say the majority of the middle eastern people are against the strict teachings.... well, ill say the rest of the planet is waiting to see just that. they arent working towards that, but away from it. just look at the cartoon reactions.

saying you are the "religion of peace" and then reacting with severe violence isnt garnering any sympathy. they have proved they are the religion of mass homicide. nothing more. and i hate genrealizeing it like that, but too bad i am. yes, i fully know that there are great ppl all around, of every race and creed, but collectivly, the middle east is proving otherwise.

i am completly against the idea of demonstrating against those muslim cartoons. I believe in a free speech and the many muslims i know believe the same thing and they were embarrassed at the protests. Unfortunatly their voices aren't represented in the media which is why you don't hear them much, they are being ignored constantly.

Finally, you seem full of hatred towards muslims and the middle east and you can't stand them because of their intolerence. But you're contradicting yourself in that way while you should go out there and speak to moderate muslims to try and understand them more.

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

again, you keep telling me i hate someone. its the same stupid asinine remark from you over and over. this, i can care less about. ppl around here know me better enough to have me gain many many friends via MS alone. so eh, i cant care anymore if you think i hate muslims, just go tell that to my ex, Yara, a jordanian muslim. i still talk to her, so maybe ill tell her i hate her.

i say the area isnt worth the trouble. and yes i hate a group that is responsible for mass murder, political instability, and is funded by outside parties looking to exert thier influence on a country. hezzbollah, uses its socail programmes to garner grass roots support, while, with the other hand, bringing trouble upon the peoples of lebanon.

[rubyraks]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I have to say there's way too much animosity going around here in this thread...with that said let me try and bring the sides together.

First off, you have to seperate the people from the politics, in the same sense as I don't want to be seen as an ambassador of my country's politics (and that goes for right or left), the same applies to residents of the middle east where they have even less choice in policies.

Politics is always about the extremes, even taking a look at the US, you begin to realize that perhaps 5% of the population (and I am exagerating by quite a bit here) are truly politically active and have a say. Politics in this country is dictated by the extremists on both sides of the aisle and completely drown out any non-extreme viewpoints.

Now let's move to the middle east (Israel notwithstanding), where an even smaller and more corrupt group of "politicians" dictate the policy (in a much more extreme and harsh manner) and usurp all the country's wealth. For as much as the US may be seeing a reversal in terms of the distribution of wealth, the poor here still have way more than the poor in many of these countries. Yes, Sean it's a reflection of capitalism at work, but unfortunately a true capitalist market can't exist in a dictatorship.

These middle eastern dictators/kings, whichever you prefer, rule their countries with an iron fist. For but one example, in Egypt (one you actually listed):

1. all opposition voices are eventually arrested and thrown in jail, including a number of reknown journalists who have been thrown in jail over the last few years. No legitimate elections have ever been held in this country.

2. the population are not allowed to be seen with any tourists under threat of arrest and do not have the freedom or the means to travel outside the country.

3. the media is entirely manipulated by the government. I was there a number of years back and watched the news on tv and by the end of it, even though I only understand very very few words, I was angry and violent (must've been all the blood and conflict I saw pictures of ).

These are just a few examples.

Moving on to Palestine, where for years I'd been arguing that one of the major problems was the corruption in the PLO and Fatah party. Money that went to them never got to the people, just check to see how much money Arafat, and now his widow, have in the bank. I was actually happy at first when hamas won the election, because at least they were getting money to the people and making their lives better, but unfortunately, as sightless correctly states, these moneys that go to the people come with an inherent price of supporting their goals (ie. Israel's destruction) and this equally applies to hezbollah.

So essentially the common people of the middle east are stuck between a rock and hard place. Support the government and get a life of poverty and fear in return or support these extremist groups and maybe have a better life, albeit with more external conflict and the same fear. Tough decision for most people to make.

...but here's the kicker the Western world tends to ignore corruption within the governments they support, whether financially or militarily, as long as they believe it helps to buy them stability in the oil market and some pretense of peace. They have never legitimately pressured a single gov't in the region out of respect for the people. They allow these corrupt and harsh governments to govern however they like.

So the people who have no desire but to live decent lives find themselves upset with the Americans because they have the closest ties to their own gov'ts.

Israel is an entirely different subject. It has been used over the last half century as a uniting front for each of the middle eastern countries (and the religious as well) to direct the common man's frustration with their lives and circumstances towards an enemy outside their own governments. And this isn't to say that Israel hasn't made their own mistakes to compound the problem. But we all know this is an entire subject all unto itself.

So in conclusion, all people really want is to be able to live a decent life. As long as they can't, they're gonna be angry people. Politics is politics, but people are people...these are not the same. The hate towards Israel is a tool of the "politicians" to redirect this anger away from themselves and their corrupt and harsh practices. The anger towards the US is a reflection of both their support of Israel and of their support of these corrupt regimes.

I'm sure I could add plenty to this, but I just need to stop writing...my fingers (and brain) now hurt

[davetlv]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

sightless, arabs don't hate jews or americans, there are jews in iran, morrocco, syria and they live there like any other muslim. it's more a political issue than a religious one. Arabs don't like israeli or american policies which have not helped them over the last century.

sono, since when did you perfect talking out of you ass into an art form old bean?

Whilsts it will no doubt be fun to rip apart all your above bs, lets just look at one country you quoted there shall we.

Iran.

There are some 25,000 Jews living in Iran, in fact Persian Jewry is one of the Diasporas oldest communities, before the Islamic revolution there were some 80,000 Jews living there.

The Council of the Jewish Community, which was established after World War II, is the representative body of the community. The Jews also have a representative in parliament who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its anti-Zionist position.


Despite the official distinction between "Jews," "Zionists," and "Israel," the most common accusation the Jews encounter is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists. The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious free dom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with "imperialistic America" ? both such activities are punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions im posed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.


Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda. A prime example is the government's publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious Czarist forgery, in 1994 and 1999. Jews also suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and public accommodations.
The Islamization of the country has brought about strict control over Jewish educational institutions. Before the revolution, there were some 20 Jewish schools functioning throughout the country. In recent years, most of these have been closed down. In the remaining schools, Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. In Teheran there are still three schools in which Jewish pupils constitute a majority. The curriculum is Islamic, and Persian is forbidden as the language of instruction for Jewish studies. Special Hebrew lessons are conducted on Fridays by the Orthodox Otzar ha-Torah organization, which is responsible for Jewish religious education. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, and Jewish pupils are compelled to attend school on that day. There are three synagogues in Teheran, but since 1994, there has been no rabbi in Iran, and the bet din does not function..

Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.


On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiran and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. Those arrested include a rabbi, a ritual slaughterer and teachers. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial. In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.


At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.
Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second argest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as the the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community's isolation from world Jewry.

The above is taken from the Virtual Jewish Library, you can link to some explainations for if you like - i would, if i was you Sono click on this word dhimmi maybe then you will stop sprouting so much crap.