Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[rubyraks]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

wow, that's a hell of a leap there and perhaps you should have posted it in the atheist thread

There's no denying that the US version was predicated on a separation of church and state to the extent that it wasn't a plurality, but that's a far cry from the conclusion you're trying to reach there.

[JahRasta]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

LOL....Like I said...I could be off the deep end with this.....but knowing human nature...its not completely absurd either.

[Lorn]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I think what he is pointing out is the ME is not ready to separte church and state.

[rubyraks]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I think what he is pointing out is the ME is not ready to separte church and state.

Now that may be the understatement of the year on this board!

[thesightless]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Now that may be the understatement of the year on this board!

add on to the end

.........and they are currently killing 200-300 ppl a day around the world to re-integrate the two forcibly.

edit ::i quoted the wrong person. add that to lorn's texrt.

[RiseandShine]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Okay...so I could completely be off the deep end with this, but this is what I am starting to think. I think that democracy was created to take power away from god. Like a teenager, always fighting the power, rebelling against figures of authority. Democracy was born from mans need to fight the totalitarianisitc control of god and the church. Where every member, was inwardly rebelling, but outwardly a devout follower and a active "foot soldier" of god. Finding blasphemers or heretics in other people so what WE do behind closed doors doesnt get found out. After years and decades an centuries passed...we slowly revolted against GOD and Religion, by changing our beliefs, ceremonies, culture, and interpretation of "God's Will", to the point where the church and state are two seperate etities. Which, if I am not mistaken, is one of the key points of democracy. So NOW what we have is people saying...screw you God, I decide whats right for me.

Well..so I believe, and like I said before, I could be waaay off the deep end with this, and I am not saying that is a factoid about ALL the people, but it could be true for a LOT of people.

I don't know about this, basically, you are saying that democracy is a tool that we, the population, have created against the opressing power of religion.
First of all, democratic ideas do not work against religious ideas - it is true that there are conflicts of power between religion and State but they have always existed and were usually well managed throughout the Middle ages
You are right that some ideas behind democrcay like equality were used to separate the State and Religion in some Europeans countries (1905 in France) but look in the US, you still have a President that says god saves America - and the word god is on the dollar bill.
Now, going "deeper" like you said, the true decline of religious activities is actually something both very new (this century) and certainly localised in the US and some countries in Europe. Andre Malraux once said : the XXIth century would be religious - or not. basically letting us understand that whatever crisis religion was going through in the 60-70s, it will be solved quickly
Finally, you present the idea that man needs to rebel against power - which I have a problem with: a lot of people actually like to be controlled and do not want too much freedom. when it comes to religion, one of the reasons why we are not all atheist is that we hope that there is something after death and time - only parts that we do not control or seem to control in our lives. there is a need for us to thrives towards purely material and human things.

[rubyraks]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

First of all, democratic ideas do not work against religious ideas - it is true that there are conflicts of power between religion and State but they have always existed and were usually well managed throughout the Middle ages

I don't necessarily agree with all that you said there, but this part in particular is extremely misleading...When the religion is governing the state, it's misleading to then say that conflicts between religion and state were "well managed". That's like saying the same in regards to any country governed by shariah law and I'm sure that wasn't the point you're trying to make.

[JahRasta]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Finally, you present the idea that man needs to rebel against power - which I have a problem with: a lot of people actually like to be controlled and do not want too much freedom.

If that is the case...then why are we soooo afraid of Socialism????

People DO want freedom...but they forget the OTHER part...RESPONSIBILITY! People DO NOT realize that with Freedom comes responsibility, without it....it would be Chaos.

The US president - Dubya...says God Bless America...now do you REALLY think that God cares about Political States?? God blesses one country and damns another? Does God really care about political boundaries we draw....seperating us from another country which is not that different? Is God REALLY that PETTY?? Or do you think God cares more about how we...as individuals conduct our lives?

If Dubya really cared about God blessing America....then he never would have gone to war with Iraq...a war where innocent US Soldiers....casualties numbering in the THOUSANDS.....are dying for a war that was based on a personal (presidential), vendetta...against a country who made an oil deal with South American instead of the US. The MAIN reason for going into Iraq was to set up a satellite nation that will sell oil to us at a good price. Granted it also helps if the VP's (Cheney) company - Haliburton is already there protecting and refining the oil. THat was the VERY FIRST thing they secured when US forces invaded Iraq. So much for the human equation. Fuck the innocent people, ...lets save the oil!

US ...is moving away from the Church and God's Will....on a rocket! Instead of expelling it, I see that US is embracing the 7 deadly sins. Not EVERYONE does this...but there is a fast growing trend in that direction.....

Democracy, in essence IS working against the religious state, because, people are weak...and will succumb to the wrongs of this world more than what is right of this world, otherwise there would BE no need for a religion...or a God. If we all were truely good people, then there would BE no religion. But we NEED it...so that we are conscious of the choices we are making and the direction we are going. Seeing what we need to do is right....ie..the 10 Commandments....instead, we are making a B line in the opposite direction.

[RiseandShine]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I don't necessarily agree with all that you said there, but this part in particular is extremely misleading...When the religion is governing the state, it's misleading to then say that conflicts between religion and state were "well managed". That's like saying the same in regards to any country governed by shariah law and I'm sure that wasn't the point you're trying to make.

sorry to be so far away from your belief - and sorry for trying to mislead you

no, here, I'm saying that church and State have coexisted - in Europe, during Middle ages, there was the Church and the state and they were distinct. when I mean conflicts, for example, when hospitals were created, there was a suddenr rush to know who will have more power over these insitutions... but in general, thoughout history in Europe, in the Middle Ages, there have not been many crisis between church and the State.

[rubyraks]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

You see what I can't understand is how you could distinguish church from state during the middle ages. During that period of time, they were one and the same. I mean, hell, England's king created his own version of religion, just so he could do whatever the hell he pleases.

To me, co-existing sounds like there's some seperation of the two, but the state was the church and the church was the state.

[Localizer]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

You see what I can't understand is how you could distinguish church from state during the middle ages. During that period of time, they were one and the same. I mean, hell, England's king created his own version of religion, just so he could do whatever the hell he pleases.

To me, co-existing sounds like there's some seperation of the two, but the state was the church and the church was the state.

exactly. The church was the state and the primary forms of rule were monarchies for European countries.

In any case, Democracy is not an exclusion of God. It just allows the recognition of everyone to be equal, thus why we used to have "one nation, under god." The presumption was that 'all men are created equal.'

[Miroslav]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I could always definitely sense a tension between most organized religions and democracy. Most religions say that you should do certain things and be a certain way. If you accept that in the fullest way possible, then that's that - what you do is Right, if others don't do it then they're Wrong...and there will never be any room for compromise on that. It's no coincidence that those who are farthest to the extreme in their acceptance of a religion's doctrines tend to be the most authoritarian people around - you can even see it in the religious right in America.

A theoretical way out of this could be if your religion prescribes specific courses of action about valuing diversity, accepting other opinions, etc. etc...but I don't really know of any that do.

[RiseandShine]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

exactly. The church was the state and the primary forms of rule were monarchies for European countries. '

Look, I'm sorry but this is wrong. Church was a separate body than the monarchy. Monarchy and its kings were blessed by the Church but the functionning of these two institutions were very different. one came from Rome, one came from the country itself.
Your example of the UK is true, but it is the exception - and the Enlgiush clergy was still separate from the Monarchy.
I am not saying that they were not working together - but they were very clearly disctinct.
In France and Germany for example, poor families would always give one son to Church, one son to the army (the state) and keep one for labor

Also, I am not saying that there is not friction between democracy, I am just against the idea that was said in the first place: democracy is a tool against religion

[RiseandShine]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Just saw that:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1558292,00.html?cnn=yes

Seems that religion is becoming somewhat more popular...

[rubyraks]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Also, I am not saying that there is not friction between democracy, I am just against the idea that was said in the first place: democracy is a tool against religion

democracy in practice is a tool against democracy in theory, but religion is the opium of the masses that often times helps that work