The Dutch to ban burqas

[speciale]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

no, you don't follow my logic at all, sorry to say. i'm saying you don't have a right to hide your identity in public...really not that tough a concept.

lets all go around town and wear ski masks that cover our face.

[Yao]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Like I said: it's not even only the security issue that bothers me, the burqa is a de-humanizing piece of clothing and therefore inherently incompatible with a society in which we advocate human rights and equality among the genders.

Malaysia is criticizing us and says it's a racist measure, but fuck them: what is this thing with Muslim states getting pissed off at Western countries for delineating their own identities huh? We're not telling Malaysia to ban the burqa...we're doing it in the Netherlands.

[KinKyJ]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...56A62BEF78.htm

And I agree on the burqa. Banning veils is out of the question imo.

[sammwalk]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

my god what is the matter with everybody...how can people agree with this? have we reached the bottom this fast? should they start outlawing yarmulkes as well? how about crosses, rosaries, habits, etc. how about clothes which can be taken to identify somebody as American, African, Asian, etc. not only is it discriminatory, it's borderline fascistic. and religio-racist. how does wearing a burqa make someone a terrorist again?...because the 9/11 hijackers were wearing turbans, right?...they were so EASY to identify as terrorists because they didn't look like other Americans, right? they didn't look like they could be anyone's neighbor practically anywhere in the US, right? How could we be so STUPID...I know...let's ban religious wear...THAT'S the ticket!!!

so, the logic is that it's a security precaution, when in fact it's a political move to try to get less muslims to feel comfortable in the Netherlands. that's really fucked up...yeah, alright, the main terrorist threat is from muslim extremists, but it's still a tiny minority. i don't know about the Dutch bill of rights, but I guess freedom of religion isn't there. maybe they don't want it to be. But then who decides what is ok and what isn't?

[KinKyJ]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

^^^ There's a clear difference between burqas and veils

Burqa (forbidden)


Veil (allowed)


Just a little insight sam: after the Taliban got chased out of Kabul, less and less women are wearing a burqa in Afghanistan. It's not a religious symbol (like the veil), but a fundamentalist symbol.

But sometimes it can be damn sexy too...



Anyway, it has nothing to do with terrorism (in the first place). The main reason is that people are expected to adapt to our values when they come here. Imagine a woman with a halter top entering a mosque in Saoudi Arabia, think that would pass?

[rubyraks]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Here's the part I believe some people here are missing out on, when I go to an arabic country I have to dress accordingly, if I don't want to dress that way then I just don't go there...the same applies here. Our western nations have a different take on appropriate clothing, if you don't want to respect western country's take on it then don't go there and definitely don't move there. That's also called freedom of choice.

[thesightless]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

the sad thing is that this really has NOTHING to do with the so-called ideas of integration, assimilation, or national acceptance. but is so driven by the assholes who, 5 years ago, decided to attempt to initiate world war 3 by flying 4 planes into US buildings......... never did we hear, think, or even bother to fathom the concept of forced integration, or examining the acceptance of religious garb, because no one cared, we all were, or at least thoguht we were on the same page in regards to equality and freedom.

lets face facts and cut the bullshit. this is so much more of the islam vs west fight than integration. here in NYC, i see ppl of every race and creedo living together. but we have to understand that the bad guys on both sides are fueling this stupid ironic theory. yes it is ironic. social acceptance and freedom being forced upon another for the sole idea of integration? BULL-FUCKING-SHIT, we allowed oursleves, our neighbors and our leaders (this being moreso in europe) to put up a barrier to freedom because somewhere, a man might wear a burqua or nijab to hurt someone......


god this is the dumbest thing ever. you arent going to encourage any ideas you want to by telling ppl they cannot live life as they choose to. while yes, i firmly stand behind the idea that , in this case, we must enforce the idea that the country's laws are concrete and above every islamic law, we cannot openly say that we want freedom and equality from one side of our mouth, while saying you cant embrace your religion, social customs and ethnic history out of the other......

[thesightless]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

btw, does anyone else notice, or feel like i do? i mean, at least i understand why they are doing it, but i dont neccessarily agree.

[day_for_night]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

i think the good outweighs the bad in this particular situation, but i do concede your point.

just for the women who are forced to wear them alone, this will be a blessing...

[Yao]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

the sad thing is that this really has NOTHING to do with the so-called ideas of integration, assimilation, or national acceptance. but is so driven by the assholes who, 5 years ago, decided to attempt to initiate world war 3 by flying 4 planes into US buildings......... never did we hear, think, or even bother to fathom the concept of forced integration, or examining the acceptance of religious garb, because no one cared, we all were, or at least thoguht we were on the same page in regards to equality and freedom.

And were wrong, so now it's time to draw a few lines in our society. It's pretty logical that in the most liberal society you get the worst backlash on cultural freedom, since it will also be the place where people abuse their freedoms the most.

Dude, looking at the things we hear now...Muslims say we are intolerant because we think they should shake hands with women, because we want them to behave according to the general standards of politeness, because we want to keep religion out of the public sphere. At the same time they have the guts to demand that we respect their mostly religiously inspired behaviour and adapt ourselves to their standards within our own country - and it's the freedom in this country they had that made them cross the lines of what one can ask in a multi-cultural society. They just didn't know how to moderate themselves and wanted it all. Mosques, wearing religious garments, not learning our language and remaining social anomalies by sticking to their own habits.

Well, now you have it: the Dutch are getting extremely pissed off with the fact that they are supposed to ignore their own cultural background and should accept everything alien, and not just that: they should obey alien rules, alien habits. Politics right now is making a hard right turn, and though most people oppose real right-wing thoughts, they are in support of stronger measures that will ensure that we can live life according to our rules and standards, not those of some backwards reli-freak from the desert.

lets face facts and cut the bullshit. this is so much more of the islam vs west fight than integration. here in NYC, i see ppl of every race and creedo living together. but we have to understand that the bad guys on both sides are fueling this stupid ironic theory. yes it is ironic. social acceptance and freedom being forced upon another for the sole idea of integration? BULL-FUCKING-SHIT, we allowed oursleves, our neighbors and our leaders (this being moreso in europe) to put up a barrier to freedom because somewhere, a man might wear a burqua or nijab to hurt someone......

It takes two to tango. And we did it alone all this time. The whole concept of 'freedom' is culturally relative anyway, it doesn't exist in an absolute form. Now, we see infringements on the European freedoms, and that's what this reaction is all about. Face it man, a Muslim, Hindu and Christian may agree on many things, but it won't ever be the definition of freedom. Never.

Talking of freedom without the cultural context is equal to assuming that the other has the same definition you do. That is never the case, not even among 2 Americans, let alone between an American and a European or a Muslim. And sorry, my freedom is the Dutch one, and people here are actively contesting my freedoms here right now. My logical reaction will be to defend them, even if it takes measures that might disadvantage those that do not accept them. Tough luck.

god this is the dumbest thing ever. you arent going to encourage any ideas you want to by telling ppl they cannot live life as they choose to. while yes, i firmly stand behind the idea that , in this case, we must enforce the idea that the country's laws are concrete and above every islamic law, we cannot openly say that we want freedom and equality from one side of our mouth, while saying you cant embrace your religion, social customs and ethnic history out of the other......

See what I said before, and then again: it's not even really about integration. It's about delineating barriers. This is done very rigidly and clearly in Muslim countries for example, it's about time we did it here. My credo has always been: my respect for another one's culture ends where his respect for mine ends. Period.

[thesightless]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

i hear where you are coming from, but a muslim wearing a traditional garb isnt neccessarily the showing they dont respect our culture, it shows, to me at least, that they value thier own. here, and im only speaking from my locality, i deal with people from the middle east and south asia all the time, and they never seem to act differently, showing values that are similar to what i consider my own. so what? for me, it doesnt imply that a hasidic jew should cut the curls and stop wearing black...


the only line i draw is to the people who put islamic law above the home country's. i.e. those idiots in germany who performed honor killings, the africans who secretly perform female genital mutiliation... and so forth.

there are bad eggs everywhere. along the lines and standards being set right now, i would eventually become a law breaker, i just shaved my head and if we really took this too far, than i would assume that shaven heads equate to neo nazi's or white supremicists.......

[thesightless]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

maybe i just dont see a barrier being drawn due to someone wearing garb... i see it when they ignore what thier surroundinds find acceptable in relation to treatment of people... here, everyone treats each other fairly well.

[thesightless]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

but hey if you want to look like a member of the addams family, i guess i cant tell you no.

[subterFUSE]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

i would eventually become a law breaker, i just shaved my head and if we really took this too far, than i would assume that shaven heads equate to neo nazi's or white supremicists.......

Nah. I would just assume they are going bald, and trying to hide it.

[Yao]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

@ Sightless: I respect your opinion in this, I may not agree but I do see the point in what you say. I don't know why I see it differently, but it might have to do with the fact that of late Muslims have been using the burqa/niqaab and things like not shaking hands to provoke reactions, to which of course they reacted in outrage, accusing us of discriminating them.

I think I've pointed you to the case in which a hardline Muslim wanted to be hired in a public function and still insisted on wearing traditional clothing and refusing to shake hands with women. I don't know about you, but refusing to shake hands with someone around here is seen as an active sign of disrespect, and insult. I think it is no more than fair that when you live here, you behave accoring to certain rules of politeness, as is expected of me when I'm in a foreign country. Since we live in a secular state, religion should also be kept out of the public sphere, especially when in a public function. Meaning no traditional religious clothing or explicit religious behaviour. Not to mention the simple dresscode to which one should abide in such a position: suit. This guy totally pissed off everyone with his whining about racism, while all he did was make ridiculous demands. The worst thing is that the Committee for Equal Treatment backed him up!! That committee has always been a group of mega-lefties that think everything from outside is good and everything Dutch is despicable. I have some documentation on this feature, something very common among leftist intellectuals, but I need to find an English translation. The committee is one for, thank god...they are getting the boot.

At the office where I work 2 ladies wear a scarf, but their don't veil their faces. I wouldn't accept it either to be honest...I can't stop it but I definitely wouldn't approve of it - for the personal reason that I think it's something that is meant to objectify women. Just as I will refuse to shake the hand of a man that won't shake my woman's hand.