Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

[subterFUSE]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

subterFUSE, I believe you left out the WMDs we were going to find, the flowers we would be greeted with and ytou totally skipped over the part about enriching the adminstration's friends at the expense of the Iraqi people and reconstruction.

Historically, this country is great at winning the war and horrible at keeping the peace. If we'd actually spent half the money we had allocated to reconstruction by using the US military and at fair rates, not Halliburton and the rest's inflated prices, we would be in a much better situation today.

I said I wasn't apologizing for Bush. I was merely pointing out the general outline of his plan because someone said there wasn't one.

The plan is different than the logic behind going to war. The things you are pointing out have to do with the logic behind going to war.... not the actual plan of action.

Besides.... at this point, we should be less concerned with why we are there and more concerned with how to find a solution. Yes, it's important to focus on both.... but we can't go back and change history. We have to try and get out of this as best we can. Tossing insults at Bush doesn't help solve a thing.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

You will not hear me defending the dems on this one...those fu*kers haven't had any original ideas in about ten years, which is why they haven't won an election since and why the only reason they won this one is because the republicans had finally screwed up so badly. The public had to vote the Republicans out, but they didn't really vote the Democrats in, there just isn't anyone else in our sh*tty two party system.

I agree. The dems did not win. The repubs lost.

And, they lost to a moderate breed of democrats. Not hardline left-wingers.

[thesightless]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

LIBERTARIAN !!!!!!

HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[thesightless]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

lol, hacksaw jim duggan reference.

[asdf_admin]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

I like subterFUSE. Good guy, non-commie.

[toasty]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

Bush has had a plan in place for some time. It was something along the lines of this:

1. Depose Saddam as leader of Iraq
2. Assist Iraqi's in setting up new democratic government
3. Assist in training Iraqi military and police forces so they can defend their country
4. Return home

That is not a plan, that is a list of goals.

I guess in fairness, Bush did have a plan, it was just an awful one which relied upon the opposition greeting us as liberators and throwing flowers at our feet. When that plan didn't work, however, rather than making adjustments, Bush continued with the same failed plan, which as far as I'm concerned is equivalent to no plan at all.

[asdf_admin]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

I actually think it was a good plan. I do not think anyone could of foreseen the actions and the high resentments towards America. Those people have been brained washed for decades about America, and nurtured to hate. I guess we really did not know how high the shit stacked, and truly there was no way to find out. I agree with you Toasty, Plan A was not working, so Plan B had to go next. I would of been happy with disarming Iraq, getting S.H. locked up, and getting our boys and girls home. If this was done in due time, I think the operation would of still been a success. When you have told the public over and over, we will win, we can not lose, Terror this, Terror that ... well you have really made a promise. You have invested American lives, capital, time, resources, and now you just want to leave? The plan was entirely executed poorly. You hit them hard, you hit them fast, and you go home right away. That scares the F out of people.

I firmly believe Iraq must go through a civil war. There is no way that country will run without one, there is just too much tension and confusion. People have not been given the chance to die for what they believe in, just either die, or told to die. There is a difference.

[toasty]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

The democrats don't have a plan.... other than to say that Bush's plan isn't working. Well, criticism alone doesn't constitute a solution. They must ante up an alternative. They have not done so, except for a few brave democrats willing to take a stand. (Jack Murtha is one. Even though I disagree with him, I respect him for offering an alternative)

And why should the dems have to wait until after an election to offer an alternative? They have had 4 years to do so already, and they didn't. Rather than suggest alternatives they chose to wait until election time and then call for "change." Now they have achieved their little goal.... so now what? NOW they decide it's time to come up with a new plan? Hmmmm.... that's cute. So 4 years have gone by, with little else but partisan sniping from the left.... but never any hint of an alternative plan.

I'm not really trying to be a Bush apologist here.... I'm just pointing out that the democrats could have put together a coherent plan of action by now. Maybe Bush would have rejected it.... but the American people would at least see this plan and form their own opinions. I'm sorry..... but if the democrats wanted my vote earlier this month, they needed to give me a general idea about what they plan to do. I know that Bush is not going to abandon Iraq tomorrow. But I don't know what the Dems want to do. So.... while I may be critical of Bush's job with running this war, it find it worrysome to hand control over to a group which has not defined it's position.

Following up an another thread I posted a while back, it takes a staggering amount of nerve for the republican party to run two countries into the ground over a 4 year period and then chastise the democrats for not having at hand a way to unfuck the fucked up situation it created. That's like me pissing all over your living room and then getting upset at you for not having any paper towels.

The democrats have never really had one solid voice that purports to speak for the party, in part because they have been in the minority and haven't had any sort of platform from which to speak. FFS, under DeLay's leadership, the Dems were rarely given the opportunity to offer legislation in the House, propose amendments, or offer argument. I can even think of one occasion, although I can't think of the topic of the bill, where the Democrats were going to offer something that the republicans actually liked, but rather than have the Democrats pass a bill, DeLay introduced another republican-authored bill that post-dated the democrat's bill but did the same damn thing. The Dems haven't been allowed to do dick for the last few years.

The other reason you haven't heard a cohesive plan yet is because it is a party of more diverse ideas. This most recent incarnation of the republican party let the far right dictate what the party believed and squelched all other voices in the party, and look where it got us. I guess I don't see where having diverse viewpoints and some real debate is a bad thing.

subterFUSE, I know you haven't been on this board for very long and you don't know me from Adam, but despite what you might think from reading my apologies for the democratic party, I'm actually not a huge fan of the dems (I actually voted for Bush the first time around) -- I just think that Bush and his cronies are the absolute worst thing to happen to this country in my lifetime, so fresh blood for the sake of fresh blood is a great thing, as far as I'm concerned. The democrats don't have a cohesive plan yet, big fucking deal. The fact that we're actually discussing what to do now is a positive step, because what we are currently doing clearly isn't working.

[rubyraks]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

I actually think it was a good plan. I do not think anyone could of foreseen the actions and the high resentments towards America.

um...Bush's dad and his administration were able to see it ten years earlier...See toasty's quote from another thread:

W could learn a lot from his dad about rational foreign policy by reading 1998's "A World Transformed":

Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different ? and perhaps barren ? outcome.

so not only was it a bad plan, but they reasonably should have known it would've failed...they just chose to ignore not only his father's advice, but practically every military officer's advice as well. The outcome was only a surprise to Bush because of his intentional ignorance to the facts on the ground...

[toasty]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

I do not think anyone could of foreseen the actions and the high resentments towards America. Those people have been brained washed for decades about America, and nurtured to hate. I guess we really did not know how high the shit stacked, and truly there was no way to find out.

I'm pretty sure this actually was foreseen, and passed on to Bush. Wasn't there an intelligence estimate that was leaked/declassified a little bit ago that speaks to this? I don't honestly recall, but I'll see if I can't track it down and post it, if so.

[rubyraks]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

at the end of the day, I don't think it's difficult to make the argument, as toasty has many a times in this thread, that neither party has any concrete ideas on how to get us out of this mess (that for all intense purposes Bush created and the Republicans helped him along until this recent election cycle), but the positive is that we are at least allowed to discuss alternatives to the "Stay the Course" approach that has been force-fed down our throats for way too long.

Anything that promotes, encourages and allows intelligent and free discussion on Iraq is a step in a positive direction and better than the status quo.

[asdf_admin]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

As the democrats attack the republicans but offer not other solution or input ... I ask you to be different and give me another viable solution. It is unfair and unjust to use the pervious operation with Iraq, that was a very different time and a very different reason we attacked Iraq. I understand to a degree the complications we faced, but I truly believe America did not know how wishy-washy Iraq was, nor how much the darkside had slide into their hearts.

[asdf_admin]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

at the end of the day, I don't think it's difficult to make the argument, as toasty has many a times in this thread, that neither party has any concrete ideas on how to get us out of this mess (that for all intense purposes Bush created and the Republicans helped him along until this recent election cycle), but the positive is that we are at least allowed to discuss alternatives to the "Stay the Course" approach that has been force-fed down our throats for way too long.

Anything that promotes, encourages and allows intelligent and free discussion on Iraq is a step in a positive direction and better than the status quo.

Save Iraq. Save the world.

I like that. I am very down.

[toasty]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

I'm pretty sure this actually was foreseen, and passed on to Bush. Wasn't there an intelligence estimate that was leaked/declassified a little bit ago that speaks to this? I don't honestly recall, but I'll see if I can't track it down and post it, if so.

Not sure if this is what I was thinking about or not, but check this out:

http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34146

[rubyraks]

Re: Scary thought. thanks mr. rich

As the democrats attack the republicans but offer not other solution or input ... I ask you to be different and give me another viable solution. It is unfair and unjust to use the pervious operation with Iraq, that was a very different time and a very different reason we attacked Iraq. I understand to a degree the complications we faced, but I truly believe America did not know how wishy-washy Iraq was, nor how much the darkside had slide into their hearts.

I hate to call you out here, but Bush sr. and many miltary officers had expressed concern before the war had begun. Just because the Bush jr. PR machine had kept that info from going public doesn't mean that the concern wasn't there.

and frankly, it pisses me off that Bush and his administration get to make an absolute clusterfu*k of a mess in Iraq and then have the balls to call out the Democrats for not having a plan. Apparently neither of the parties have any fu*kin clue on how to get us out of Iraq, but it WAS Bush who got us into the mess in the first place, so why blame the Dems for anything...they literally were impotent for four years.

At the very least, what this election says to me is that America would like to see a different party in power who hopefully wouldn't get us into these kind of situations in the first place. Having answers would be a bonus at this point and that stands for answers from either party, because this Iraq clusterfu*k is just a damned if you do damned if you don't situation at this point. Because of Bush, we are now truly fu*ked in this region of the world...ironic how this all evolved from us getting attacked in the worst of ways in the first place...