Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

[toasty]

Check it out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061219/en_nm/france_binladen_dc

Highlights:

French troops had bin Laden in sights: documentary

By Francois Murphy Tue Dec 19, 1:55 PM ET

PARIS (Reuters) - A documentary says French special forces had
Osama bin Laden in their sights twice about three years ago but their U.S. superiors never ordered them to fire.

The French military, however, said that the incidents never happened and the report was "erroneous information."

The documentary, due to air next year and seen by Reuters on Tuesday, says the troops could have killed the al Qaeda leader in
Afghanistan but the order to shoot never came, possibly because it took too long to request it.

"In 2003 and 2004 we had bin Laden in our sights. The sniper said 'I have bin Laden'," an anonymous French soldier is quoted as saying.

The documentary 'Bin Laden, the failings of a manhunt' is by journalists Emmanuel Razavi and Eric de Lavarene, who have worked for several major French media outlets in Afghanistan. A cable television channel plans to air the documentary in March.

Razavi said the soldier told them it took roughly two hours for the request to reach the U.S. officers who could authorize it but the anonymous man is also quoted in the documentary as saying: "There was a hesitation in command."

This, at the very end of the article, perked me up:

In September,
President Bush dismissed as an "urban myth" the idea his administration had become distracted from its effort to track down bin Laden.

I'm willing to reject the (increasingly popular) suggestion that Bush may intentionally be lackadaisical as to bin Laden because the fearmongering works better if bin Laden is alive as myth. Is there any serious doubt, though, that Iraq has been a monumental distraction from our mission in Afghanistan? Considering the number of troops on the ground in Afghanistan versus Iraq, and the fact that the Taliban has regained a foothold in Afghanistan since the Iraq campaign began, how can you even say that with a straight face?

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Bin Laden is inconsequential. He has effectively been neutralized. He isn't pulling the strings any more. Iran and Syria are the big players. Bin Laden is just a figurehead. If he was killed, it wouldn't make the world any safer.

I do believe that we had several chances to get him before 9/11.... and that is certainly regrettable. But, at this point, it is a waste of time worrying about finding him. We have to address the real problems. Iran, Syria and their involvement with terrorism.

[DIDI]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

^^^ He is still a very potent figurehead, and perception is everything in this day and age. You may realise he is inconsequential but to the majority he is still pulling the strings.

Toasty, From here it just looks like unbelievable incompetency!!

[superdave]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

I doubt we missed the opportunity to kill Bin Laden that time. I think we missed the chance when we had him cornered in Tora Bora. I think it was an inside job that he got away.

I agree that the war in Iraq has caused us to lose focus in Afghanistan. Although we have troops still in Afghanistan, we've allowed the Taliban to re-group. There could be other factors too for the Taliban resurgence besides just our focus in Iraq though.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

I doubt we missed the opportunity to kill Bin Laden that time. I think we missed the chance when we had him cornered in Tora Bora. I think it was an inside job that he got away.

I agree that the war in Iraq has caused us to lose focus in Afghanistan. Although we have troops still in Afghanistan, we've allowed the Taliban to re-group. There could be other factors too for the Taliban resurgence besides just our focus in Iraq though.

Bill Clinton had several opportunities to get Bin Laden before 9/11. He was detained in Sudan, but we let him go. We also had an armed Predator drone which located him in Afghanistan, but we did not act.


The reason Bin Laden made it out of Tora Bora was because we trusted the Pakistani military to handle the situation. Pakistan is NOT a friend of the USA. Mussharaf doesn't have control over the country. His military and police are thoroughly infiltrated by al Qaeda supporters. These insiders frequently warn Bin Laden of impending actions, so he can escape. This was true when Clinton launched the missile attacks, also. They had Bin Laden, but sent missiles which took a long time to reach the target. Before they launched the missiles, the US warned Pakistan of what was happening. This information was relayed to Bin Laden, who narrowly escaped.


The problem for us finding Bin Laden is that he isn't in Afghanistan, but Pakistan. Pakistan will not allow the USA to send in troops to their borders to hunt Bin Laden. So if we want to get him, we would have to invade Pakistan. (A supposedly friendly nuclear power)

It all comes down to corruption, so you are correct when you said that.


But, when you weigh the option of invading a nuclear "ally" in order to capture 1 man (who frankly is of little importance now), then it makes little sense to me to do that. I want Bin Laden, but I know that his capture is largely inconsequential in the war on terror. He isn't running the show anymore. al Qaeda isn't the same organization it was before 9/11. They have been marginalized, and fragmented. This is part of the reason why we have not been attacked again in the USA. We have dealt serious blows to their organization.

If Bin Laden is killed, it won't change the fact that millions of muslims around the world hate the USA and hate Israel, and want both of our destruction. Nothing is going to change that. These people teach their children to hate with such vehement ferocity, it is scary to imagine what the next 20 years will hold. But it is not in Bin Laden's control. He is just a spiritual figure to them. People want to make attacks in his honor. He is celebrated as a hero, and if he dies.... as a martyr.

Killing terrorists doesn't work as a long-term solution. It's like cutting a head off the hydra. A new one always grows back.

[toasty]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

@ subterFUSE: Why do I get the feeling that this "bin Laden isn't important" drumbeat will be summarily discarded in favor of "bin Laden is the most important figure in the war on terror" the moment he's finally captured or killed?

Tell me that on September 12, 2001, you would have been OK with him still being on the run 5 years later, and that "neutralizing" him was really the goal. I'm calling bullshit. "Bin Laden is inconsequential" is something that Bushies say to make them feel better about their fearless leader's failure to bring this guy to justice, period. That, and "Bill Clinton had several opportunities to get Bin Laden before 9/11."

The one thing I got from this article that I thought was particularly interesting is the realization that there is evidently not a standing kill order for bin Laden, and that you would have to run the question of, "Gee, should I capture or kill the most wanted man on the planet" up the flagpole before acting. Why the hell not?

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

@ subterFUSE: Why do I get the feeling that this "bin Laden isn't important" drumbeat will be summarily discarded in favor of "bin Laden is the most important figure in the war on terror" the moment he's finally captured or killed?

Tell me that on September 12, 2001, you would have been OK with him still being on the run 5 years later, and that "neutralizing" him was really the goal. I'm calling bullshit. "Bin Laden is inconsequential" is something that Bushies say to make them feel better about their fearless leader's failure to bring this guy to justice, period. That, and "Bill Clinton had several opportunities to get Bin Laden before 9/11."

The one thing I got from this article that I thought was particularly interesting is the realization that there is evidently not a standing kill order for bin Laden, and that you would have to run the question of, "Gee, should I capture or kill the most wanted man on the planet" up the flagpole before acting. Why the hell not?

Toasty.... I agree with you that if and when we get Bin Laden, the USA will trump up his profile to make it sound like we have defeated terrorism. I am saying I think that is bullshit, and I disagree with anyone who thinks that getting Bin Laden is the ultimate solution to the world's problems.

Getting Bin Laden will have little to no effect on the global issue of terrorism. Yes, I really do wish we could get him. Don't get me wrong. But the problem is that to get him we need Pakistan to help, and they will not. So, do we invade Pakistan too? Invade a nuclear power just to get 1 guy who won't make an ounce of difference in our overall mission? That doesn't make any sense to me.

This isn't about pushing blame.... it is about focusing on reality. Bin Laden is 1 man. An influential man, to be sure.... but just a man. The real issue we face is global, and reaches far beyond some guy living in the stone age like Fred Flinstone.

[thesightless]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

i love al zawahiris comments today.... that gaza wont be solved with diplomacy and votes, but only with a holy war... i say we give it them. since the islamists have essentially pissed on every other religion on the planet, i think it would be a quick fight. the christo-judeo-hindi-buddist alliance has a lot more people and bombs. and we can attack them on all fronts. i know thie post is retarded and someone will take it too seriously, but too bad. i say we just kill em all and dictate what happens. i think its safe to say that the hardline islamists have fucked up enough regions to the point where we should just exterminate them.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

i love al zawahiris comments today.... that gaza wont be solved with diplomacy and votes, but only with a holy war... i say we give it them. since the islamists have essentially pissed on every other religion on the planet, i think it would be a quick fight. the christo-judeo-hindi-buddist alliance has a lot more people and bombs. and we can attack them on all fronts. i know thie post is retarded and someone will take it too seriously, but too bad. i say we just kill em all and dictate what happens. i think its safe to say that the hardline islamists have fucked up enough regions to the point where we should just exterminate them.

It would be nice if we could just find the proof that there is no god, and then suddenly all of these thousands of years of fighting about an invisible man in the sky would seem pretty pointless, wouldn't it?

Where are the aliens and UFOs when you need them?

[thesightless]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

aliens wouldnt help, i wanna see some half cow half man being descend from the sky right on top of jerusalem with a loud booming voice and declare himself god and tell everyone to test him.


though an alien invasion might actually get our retarded species together.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Someone should make a movie where the USA just nukes Mecca for the hell of it, just so we can see the worldwide muslim response. Have Slim Pickins riding the nuke down like in Dr. Strangelove. Yeeeeeeeehawwwwww. Right down onto morning prayer at the giant black cube. You think some cartoons of Muhammed were bad? They'd go ape shit.

It's like shaking up the ant farm. "Hahaha look.... They're REALLY mad now."

[toasty]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Toasty.... I agree with you that if and when we get Bin Laden, the USA will trump up his profile to make it sound like we have defeated terrorism. I am saying I think that is bullshit, and I disagree with anyone who thinks that getting Bin Laden is the ultimate solution to the world's problems.

Getting Bin Laden will have little to no effect on the global issue of terrorism. Yes, I really do wish we could get him. Don't get me wrong. But the problem is that to get him we need Pakistan to help, and they will not. So, do we invade Pakistan too? Invade a nuclear power just to get 1 guy who won't make an ounce of difference in our overall mission? That doesn't make any sense to me.

This isn't about pushing blame.... it is about focusing on reality. Bin Laden is 1 man. An influential man, to be sure.... but just a man. The real issue we face is global, and reaches far beyond some guy living in the stone age like Fred Flinstone.

Fair enough, and I'd agree that getting bin Laden wouldn't end the terrorist threat, not by a long shot. On the other hand, I think it's disingenuous when people suggest that he's scarcely a blip on the map. Remember these famous Bush quotes?:

• "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." President Bush, 9/13/01
• "I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'" President Bush, 9/17/01

Five fruitless years of half-assed searching later, though, it suddenly doesn't make any difference if we catch him or not? Riiiiiight. Odd how the message changes with the times...

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Fair enough, and I'd agree that getting bin Laden wouldn't end the terrorist threat, not by a long shot. On the other hand, I think it's disingenuous when people suggest that he's scarcely a blip on the map. Remember these famous Bush quotes?:

• "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." President Bush, 9/13/01
• "I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'" President Bush, 9/17/01

Five fruitless years of half-assed searching later, though, it suddenly doesn't make any difference if we catch him or not? Riiiiiight. Odd how the message changes with the times...

I see what you are saying, and I agree with you. But I think the real mistake wasn't "not getting Bin Laden" but rather placing so much emphasis on finding him in the first place. There's much larger problems which must be addressed before the world is free of terrorism.

[rubyraks]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Bush's foreign policy is better served with Bin Laden alive and free than captured or dead.

[superdave]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Someone should make a movie where the USA just nukes Mecca for the hell of it, just so we can see the worldwide muslim response. Have Slim Pickins riding the nuke down like in Dr. Strangelove. Yeeeeeeeehawwwwww. Right down onto morning prayer at the giant black cube. You think some cartoons of Muhammed were bad? They'd go ape shit.

It's like shaking up the ant farm. "Hahaha look.... They're REALLY mad now."

Whoever made that movie and those associate with it would be killed. Making that movie would be a death sentence.