Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Whoever made that movie and those associate with it would be killed. Making that movie would be a death sentence.

No.... the people who made the movie wouldn't get killed. They would be pretty safe, actually. Muslims in the USA would protest for sure... but in the USA protests are done peacefully for the most part. It's muslims in other countries who would riot violently, but they'd pretty much just be killing each other.

[nebra]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

The thing about Bin Laden: In Europe there's a theory that says Bin Laden never was an object of searching, nobody is searching for him though bringing him to justice was allways
one of the main points in Bush administration's so called war against terrorism.
Searching for Bin Laden is also one of the reasons of occupational army to stay in that region, like onlyinbushhead existance of weapons of mass destruction was reason to start a war in Iraq.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

The thing about Bin Laden: In Europe there's a theory that says Bin Laden never was an object of searching, nobody is searching for him though bringing him to justice was allways
one of the main points in Bush administration's so called war against terrorism.
Searching for Bin Laden is also one of the reasons of occupational army to stay in that region, like onlyinbushhead existance of weapons of mass destruction was reason to start a war in Iraq.

1. We can't get Bin Laden because he is in Pakistan, and Pakistan is effectively protecting him by not allowing us to send ground forces in to get him.

2. The whole world thought Saddam had WMDs before the coalition went in. Every intelligence agency said the same thing. Even Iran thought Saddam had them, which was the only thing keeping them from stirring up trouble like they are now.

[nebra]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

1. We can't get Bin Laden because he is in Pakistan, and Pakistan is effectively protecting him by not allowing us to send ground forces in to get him.

2. The whole world thought Saddam had WMDs before the coalition went in. Every intelligence agency said the same thing. Even Iran thought Saddam had them, which was the only thing keeping them from stirring up trouble like they are now.

Maybe he's in Pakistan, maybe he isn't.
Of course they don't allow your ground forces to walk in. How would you feel if Chinese army for example would come to you to search for somebody.

2. We were 100% sure all the time Iraq hasn't WMD or bio weapon 'cause they simply
didn't have resources for that which was confirmed a thousand times by UN inspectors.
This was a pure propaganda which U.S. government learned well from Goebbels and we knew it all the time, that's why Europe opposed war in Iraq.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Maybe he's in Pakistan, maybe he isn't.
2. We were 100% sure all the time Iraq hasn't WMD or bio weapon 'cause they simply
didn't have resources for that which was confirmed a thousand times by UN inspectors.
This was a pure propaganda which U.S. government learned well from Goebbels and we knew it all the time, that's why Europe opposed war in Iraq.

That is a complete load of bullshit. Every intelligence service in the world "knew" Saddam had WMDs before the coalition went in. Why else did the UN unanimously pass Resolution 1441? Remember that one? "Saddam must disarm or faces serious consequences." Excuse me, but are you really so naive to believe what you have just said? Why would anyone vote yes on a Resolution which claims Saddam has weapons if they didn't think he had them? Saddam did have WMDs, because he used them against the Kurds. Everyone knew this. Everyone saw it happen in the 1980s.

Everyone knew Saddam was a threat. He would attack his own people. He would attack his neighbors (Kuwait). He would fire at UN aircraft patrolling the No Fly Zone every day for 12 years, violating his cease-fire agreements. All of this gets conveniently forgotten by war critics. Curious, don't you think?

Iran and Iraq have long been enemies. Iran is a shi'ite country, and the population of Iraq is largely Shi'ite. Saddam is a Sunni, but had control of the military so he could overpower the masses in his country. Iran would have tried overthrowing Saddam at a moment's notice if they didn't think he had WMDs. But they were afraid he had them, just like everyone else in the world was. Notice how now that Saddam is gone, and we learn that the WMDs were not there in the abundance everyone thought.... suddenly Iran begins moving into Iraq?

No.... I'm sorry, but you and everyone else who likes to claim they knew Saddam had no weapons all along are completely full of shit.

[nebra]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

That is a complete load of bullshit. Every intelligence service in the world "knew" Saddam had WMDs before the coalition went in. Why else did the UN unanimously pass Resolution 1441? Remember that one? "Saddam must disarm or faces serious consequences." Excuse me, but are you really so naive to believe what you have just said? Why would anyone vote yes on a Resolution which claims Saddam has weapons if they didn't think he had them? Saddam did have WMDs, because he used them against the Kurds. Everyone knew this. Everyone saw it happen in the 1980s.

Everyone knew Saddam was a threat. He would attack his own people. He would attack his neighbors (Kuwait). He would fire at UN aircraft patrolling the No Fly Zone every day for 12 years, violating his cease-fire agreements. All of this gets conveniently forgotten by war critics. Curious, don't you think?

Iran and Iraq have long been enemies. Iran is a shi'ite country, and the population of Iraq is largely Shi'ite. Saddam is a Sunni, but had control of the military so he could overpower the masses in his country. Iran would have tried overthrowing Saddam at a moment's notice if they didn't think he had WMDs. But they were afraid he had them, just like everyone else in the world was. Notice how now that Saddam is gone, and we learn that the WMDs were not there in the abundance everyone thought.... suddenly Iran begins moving into Iraq?

No.... I'm sorry, but you and everyone else who likes to claim they knew Saddam had no weapons all along are completely full of shit.

You don't need to be upset we're just debating and try to stay on the level.

"Every intelligence service in the world "knew" Saddam had WMDs." - If they "knew"
something which turned out non existing they were either told to "knew" or they're just
"unintelligent service".
Saddam had WMD in 80's but after the gulf war they got rid of WMDs, do you remember using WMDs in gulf war?
(A million dollar question: WHO PROVIDED SADDAM CHEMICAL WEAPONS?)
After the gulf war allies were in position to overthrow Saddam very easily thus Bush sr.
wanted to leave him on the throne because it was in U.S. interest - I think there's no need to mention what kind of interest it was about.
Saddam desperatly wanted the whole world to believe he possesses the WMDs 'cause
that was his only protection.
Of course he deserves to hang but problem is that situation in Iraq is worse then before.
50 to 100 civilians die in Iraq every day maybe more I don't know, also 100 of occupants
die every month, total is over 3000.

I don't blame you - from what you're writing here it' obvious that you're victim of propaganda. You live in Florida...yes? Who's the governor of Florida?
Isn't one of the Bush gang?

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

"Every intelligence service in the world "knew" Saddam had WMDs." - If they "knew"
something which turned out non existing they were either told to "knew" or they're just
"unintelligent service".

So it seems they were incorrect in their intelligence. But you can't monday morning quarterback that issue after the fact. The USA was not alone in thinking Saddam still had WMDs.

Saddam had WMD in 80's but after the gulf war they got rid of WMDs, do you remember using WMDs in gulf war?

There are scattered, but relatively unconfirmed, reports of some biological or radioactive weapons being used during the 90s Gulf War. Certainly not enough to give the impression that Saddam had completely disarmed.
The UN weapons inspectors periodically found and destroyed WMDs during the early 1990s, which proves that Saddam had not used all of them during the first Gulf War. And the inspectors were never satisfied with Saddam's level of cooperation, and were eventually expelled from the country before completing their work.

I am somewhat skeptical of the claims that his program was non-existant. It would not surprise me in the slightest if we eventually find stockpiles of weapons buried all over the place. I remember when I was living in Washington DC, stockpiles of unexploded WWI munitions were discovered near my home. They included toxic agents such as mustard gas. They had been buried for years, and nobody knew about them. Then real estate developers moved in and began building houses. They started finding these things and had to stop development to dig them up. It was a huge mess, with the Army Corps of Engineers having to come in for months. If chemical weapons could be buried inside the city limits of Washington DC for 50+ years without people knowing about it, I think it's possible for similar weapons to be buried somewhere in Iraq.

(A million dollar question: WHO PROVIDED SADDAM CHEMICAL WEAPONS?)

Your point here is irrelevant to the debate. In fact, it only weakens your argument that Saddam did not have WMDs. But while we are on the subject, fine. Saddam received technology for developing chemical weapons primarily from Germany and the United Kingdom. They also got chemicals from Spain, Portugal, Egypt, and others. Countries like France, Italy and Spain supplied nuclear technologies. The USA provided samples of Anthrax, West Nile virus and other illnesses for Iraq to develop vaccinations. These were used for weapons development, instead.

After the gulf war allies were in position to overthrow Saddam very easily thus Bush sr.
wanted to leave him on the throne because it was in U.S. interest - I think there's no need to mention what kind of interest it was about.

The reason had more to do with logistics than any secretive plot as you are insinuating. They were afraid of several things:

1. That pushing on into Baghdad would cause the coalition to fall apart.
2. That it would increase US casualties.
3. They were hopeful that Iraq would unseat Saddam through an internal coup. This was attempted, but Saddam's forces crushed the opposition.

Saddam desperatly wanted the whole world to believe he possesses the WMDs 'cause
that was his only protection.

Very true. Saddam wanted the world to think he had WMDs, because it provided him with protection. But that only solidifies the rationale behind taking him out of power. You can't ignore someone who makes threats like that.

Think about this.... If the police have surrounded a house with a suspected criminal inside, and that person yells out the window that he is armed and will attack anyone approaching the house.... How will the police treat that situation? Are they going to assume he is lying and send in police without any protection? No chance. They are going to call the SWAT team, with full body armor and automatic weapons. They are going to treat the situation as seriously as possible, because you can't take chances like that.

If that suspect yells out "I have a gun!" and then runs outside carrying a fake gun and points it at people, then you can't be surprised if the police blast him full of holes.

If a dictator who has killed thousands of his own people using WMDs is actively misleading the world into thinking he still has weapons.... the world must take him seriously.

If a dictator violates cease-fire agreements for 12 years by firing on aircraft patrolling a UN Sanctioned No Fly Zone... you must take him seriously.

If a dictator kicks out weapons inspectors who were charged with the task of certifying the destruction of his weapons.... you must take him seriously.

Of course he deserves to hang but problem is that situation in Iraq is worse then before.
50 to 100 civilians die in Iraq every day maybe more I don't know, also 100 of occupants
die every month, total is over 3000.

This is debatable. If you ask most Kurds whether they prefer their situation now or with Saddam, I wonder what they will say? Saddam killed far more people during his reign than what has happened since his removal. And now he is going to die for it, at the hands of his own people.

Certainly things are not going well in Iraq, and that has a lot to do with Iran. Most deaths in Iraq are resulting from bombs which are made in Iran.

I don't blame you - from what you're writing here it' obvious that you're victim of propaganda. You live in Florida...yes? Who's the governor of Florida?
Isn't one of the Bush gang?

No. I'm a victim of paying enough attention to the news to know that all these claims that nobody thought Saddam had WMDs before the war are false. I know that the WMD argument was only 1 of several reasons given for the war. I know that it was not only the Bush admin who thought there were WMDs, but every other intelligence agency in the world. I know that removing Saddam has been USA policy for many years preceeding George W. Bush.

And I am not quite sure what the outgoing governor of a state in which I have lived fewer than 4 years, and have never previously had an opportunity to even vote for, has to do with anything?

[nebra]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

Your post is a quite detailed. Good job!

I certainly agree that every situation in Iraq without Saddam is better than with him alive.

You have to realize we have a different perception of war going in Iraq thus we have different history, different politics, different vision of the future and all this affects how we see worldwide politics.
The best thing I can remember right now is that I can list you the facts which are
pretty much confirmed in EU. Maybe you'll agree with some of them with most of the others you won't but this is how the majority of us see things. I respect different opinion and I'm prepared to consider it if turns out to be relevant. I hope you won't take it personal.

- Over 50% of EU citizens believe the republicans are connected with 9.11.

- The minority of E.U. citizens believe the republicans set up the 9.11. and
Al Kaida were there allies.

- USA started a war in Iraq exclusively to take control over oil.

- According to EU residents USA is the biggest threat to the world peace.

- US army and rebels are killing civilians on every day basis so they continue with Saddam' s job.

- In a way Bush is the biggest terrorist in the world.

- When the occupants will withdraw from Iraq the terrorist threats should reduce to minimum if US government sincerely wants that.

- USA is losing the war in Iraq like that one in Vietnam - history is repeating itself.
This is the war they can't win and they know it plus they created chaos in Afganistan.

- The democrats are going to win the next elections and then US army will start thinking of withdrawing .

- Many think the inauguration of G. Bush for president is the biggest mistake in
American history, you'll feel the consequences for a long time - that's for sure.

[BSully828]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

- Over 50% of EU citizens believe the republicans are connected with 9.11.

- The minority of E.U. citizens believe the republicans set up the 9.11. and
Al Kaida were there allies.

- USA started a war in Iraq exclusively to take control over oil.

- According to EU residents USA is the biggest threat to the world peace.

- US army and rebels are killing civilians on every day basis so they continue with Saddam' s job.

- In a way Bush is the biggest terrorist in the world.

- When the occupants will withdraw from Iraq the terrorist threats should reduce to minimum if US government sincerely wants that.

- USA is losing the war in Iraq like that one in Vietnam - history is repeating itself.
This is the war they can't win and they know it plus they created chaos in Afganistan.

- The democrats are going to win the next elections and then US army will start thinking of withdrawing .

- Many think the inauguration of G. Bush for president is the biggest mistake in
American history, you'll feel the consequences for a long time - that's for sure.

from what you're writing here it' obvious that you're victim of propaganda.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

- Over 50% of EU citizens believe the republicans are connected with 9.11.

- The minority of E.U. citizens believe the republicans set up the 9.11. and
Al Kaida were there allies.

- USA started a war in Iraq exclusively to take control over oil.

- According to EU residents USA is the biggest threat to the world peace.

- US army and rebels are killing civilians on every day basis so they continue with Saddam' s job.

- In a way Bush is the biggest terrorist in the world.

- When the occupants will withdraw from Iraq the terrorist threats should reduce to minimum if US government sincerely wants that.

- USA is losing the war in Iraq like that one in Vietnam - history is repeating itself.
This is the war they can't win and they know it plus they created chaos in Afganistan.

- The democrats are going to win the next elections and then US army will start thinking of withdrawing .

- Many think the inauguration of G. Bush for president is the biggest mistake in
American history, you'll feel the consequences for a long time - that's for sure.

And you think I am the one who is the victim of propaganda?

[davetlv]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

You have to realize we have a different perception of war going in Iraq thus we have different history, different politics, different vision of the future and all this affects how we see worldwide politics.

This is just another way to saying, fuck it, we're stupid here in Europe, our vision for a united europe is based on something similar to the United States of America, but we'll never admit that to them

The best thing I can remember right now is that I can list you the facts which are pretty much confirmed in EU.

The things about facts old bean is that you should always state your source - some of your following is far from being fact its fiction. But please prove me wrong and show us some of these fact.

- Over 50% of EU citizens believe the republicans are connected with 9.11.

Well this is a good start. Over 50% you claim, ok, prove it. Where are these hundred of million european citizens who think this nonsense? Was there a survey done? What was its sample reach? Who conducted it?

- The minority of E.U. citizens believe the republicans set up the 9.11. and Al Kaida were there allies.

Heres a non-starter - a minority of a few hundred million could be, what, 1, 2, 20, 400. Credit us here with a bit more intellect then glibly throwing out figures you have no means of proving!

- USA started a war in Iraq exclusively to take control over oil.

And yet its being run by Iraqi companies, with Iraqi citizens reaping the benefits. The closet claim you could have here is that American companies are earning from infrastructre in the industry, but guess what matey, why do you think the French were against the war, could it be something to do with the huge deals they had with Sadaam? Those countries that freed Iraq from Sadaam are benefiting, sure, but don't forget who the biggest benefits are going to!

- According to EU residents USA is the biggest threat to the world peace.

Who are these residents. Your mates? Funny i recently read a survey that said my beloved country was the biggest threat to world peace.

- US army and rebels are killing civilians on every day basis so they continue with Saddam' s job.

You've already shown you know sweet fuck all, do you really wanna continue to embaress yourself.

- In a way Bush is the biggest terrorist in the world.

- When the occupants will withdraw from Iraq the terrorist threats should reduce to minimum if US government sincerely wants that.

- USA is losing the war in Iraq like that one in Vietnam - history is repeating itself.
This is the war they can't win and they know it plus they created chaos in Afganistan.

- The democrats are going to win the next elections and then US army will start thinking of withdrawing .

- Many think the inauguration of G. Bush for president is the biggest mistake in
American history, you'll feel the consequences for a long time - that's for sure.

This shit can all be summed up together - stop taking drugs and posting in the politics section.

I've never been the great fan of the US (sorry I havent) but this is just bullshit your venting based on no facts whatsoever.

Maybe you should ask the Iranian who is killing more iraqis? Maybe you should look at the numbers of Iraqis killed this year in sectarian violence compared to those killed co-alition forces, or better still, get your head out of your ass before you can post such crap here, it may work in other places, but we are slightly more well read then the normal twat who reads counterpounch.

[nebra]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

The things about facts old bean is that you should always state your source - some of your following is far from being fact its fiction. But please prove me wrong and show us some of these fact.


This shit can all be summed up together - stop taking drugs and posting in the politics section.

I'don't need to prove you nothing, if you don't believe it it's your problem.
You're forgetting that this is a debate on the forum, not some political statement or article in some media.
There were surveys made by European statistical bureau - Eurostat, some newspapers,
magazines and so on. If you think I made this up you're wrong.
It's very true those facts are in radical form and that was my intention since I'm interested in reactions from the people around the world, not just in this thread.
I understand your psychosis since you derive from Israel but nevertheless you could
show some manners or this would be something new for you.

[rubyraks]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

nebra, not to beat a dead horse with this, but to be quoting the masses' opinions to establish any case is pathetic. I'm sure I'd be called an elitist for saying this, but I'm, sorry to inform you that the "Masses are asses."

Many of us here tend to read much more than the average person (if they read anything substantive at all) and to be using mass opinion is an insult to us and I'm sure from reading your posts, to yourself as well.

Many in the US believed for a long time that there was a connection between Saddam and Bin Ladin, contrary to numerous reports discussing their open disdain for one another. Should I use this as a legitimate justification for our war in Iraq because that's what the masses believed? I don't and never would. So too, your poll is useless.

There are much better arguments for why Bin Ladin hasn't been found or why weapons of mass destruction were never found in Iraq. You just chose to get into namecalling and playing the blame game rather than actually dealing with facts.

Now let's get back on topic...

[davetlv]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

I'don't need to prove you nothing, if you don't believe it it's your problem.

Actually mate, you entered something into debate as fact. You were asked to supply the facts and all you seem to do is back peddle.

You're forgetting that this is a debate on the forum, not some political statement or article in some media.

Actually its because you've eneterd the debate forum you should supply the facts yoou are talking about - otherwise this is just more nonsense. You do understand how this works don't you? You talk about something, with out backing it up with the empirical evidence you claim is there just not supplied, does not make for debate. It makes for a diatribe on complete nonsense.

There were surveys made by European statistical bureau - Eurostat, some newspapers,
magazines and so on. If you think I made this up you're wrong.
It's very true those facts are in radical form and that was my intention since I'm interested in reactions from the people around the world, not just in this thread.

So there are surveys you wont link too, in some publications you wont name - and you're suprised that i think you are making up this BS!!!!!

I understand your psychosis since you derive from Israel but nevertheless you could show some manners or this would be something new for you.

You clearly understand nothing, whethers its my apparent psychosis or even basic truths. The fact that i am an Israeli is not relevant unless you have the inability to argue your point, which clearly you seem to have!!!!

Its you who needs to show manners - you come into the forum with the most outrageous claims without the ability to back them up all to further your own anti-american/anti-war agenda, anyone else with half a brain cell intact after the festive period would have had the balls to supply the empirical evidence you claim is available - but you won't or more likely can't.

Sweeping generalities do not make for good debate - they make for nothing more than fodder for those of us here who don't like to be treated like fools.

[thesightless]

Re: Documentary Claims Missed Opportunity to Kill bin Laden

here is a fact for a different debate. mick jagger is actually a clone, he really died in 1968, and its a hybrid biological/metal alloy being. fact.