Shapoopie has just hit the fan in Iraq

[rubyraks]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

I don't think it's the magical solution to everything, but if Israel and Palestina could come to an agreement / plan under the lead of the US, it would give the US a lot of credit in the region instead of the image of colonizators...

true and it's ashamed that Bush allowed whatever progress was made under Clinton to just fall by the wayside. I'm not saying that Arafat's last rejection of a peace offering at Camp David wasn't harmful in and of itself, but a proactive approach to the situation by the Bush administration early on would've been more helpful than just ignoring it entirely.

Btw: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS...ran/index.html

dem fighting words!

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

With all that said, I'm still willing and hoping to be wrong so please give examples where diplomacy has actually succeeded when dealing with cultures other than our own (hence Ireland is out). I'm all ears.

Sierra Leone, Congo (still in progress), East-Timor, Liberia, off the top of my head.

Enough fuckups, but no-one bothers to look at success or at the least result. I do agree that only talk is not always the solution, but once the fighting has stopped being quiet and sitting down isn't going to get you any progress either. In most conflicts I'd like to see UN troops moving in with a mandate that will allow them to crack down on violence hard, and bring both (or more) warring factions to a truce -forced if necessary. Then the reconciliation process should take off, because it is vital to succesfull cohabitation.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Sierra Leone, Congo (still in progress), East-Timor, Liberia, off the top of my head.

Enough fuckups, but no-one bothers to look at success or at the least result. I do agree that only talk is not always the solution, but once the fighting has stopped being quiet and sitting down isn't going to get you any progress either. In most conflicts I'd like to see UN troops moving in with a mandate that will allow them to crack down on violence hard, and bring both (or more) warring factions to a truce -forced if necessary. Then the reconciliation process should take off, because it is vital to succesfull cohabitation.

Congo... Why didn't I think of that? It's a former colony of ours for crying out loud

I'm with you on this Yao: if violence is needed, the intervening troops should be under UN mandate. Not that UN troops shoot better or drop bigger bombs or whatever, but there sure as hell will be less or no bullshit about hidden motives like power or oil.

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Despite the scandals in Congo and Côte d'Ivoire with the Belgians and French a while ago, I've always admired them for being the only 2 countries daring to take a side and act like it. I wish the UN would have the balls to do that as well, just not take sides but move in and get shit done.

Take Sudan for example...there's a lot of bullshit going around with the govt. there kicking out the UN troops before the AU troops can take over. Jan Pronk got evicted for 'waging a verbal war against the military' and Annan got fooled while visiting camps. Meanwhile some 200.000 people have been killed and it hasn't stopped yet. Their military isn't strong enough to compete with a well-equipped UN force, and like in Congo it is VERY possible to stop the violence with a military force that has the right mandate.
But no...we start off with talking in a conflict where obviously the agressor has no intention of voluntarily sitting around the table, and if they do it's to appease the worried UN while they give us the finger behind our backs. Al-Bashir is a piece of shit that must get the bullet just as bad as Saddam, and we should beat the shit out of those horseriding Janjaweed (or cut the legs from their horses...make the men run until they drop dead). Then bring on the other factions and bring the culprits before the courts. Though far from perfect, the case of Rwanda/Burundi has show that it is a good way to end a conflict.

I've read heaps of books on this shit, and the main reason for conflicts is pretty simple: weak states and governments that lack legitimacy in a setting where being in office is the best way to ensure the survival of your social/religious/ethnical group.

[88Mariner]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Congo... Why didn't I think of that? It's a former colony of ours for crying out loud

I'm with you on this Yao: if violence is needed, the intervening troops should be under UN mandate. Not that UN troops shoot better or drop bigger bombs or whatever, but there sure as hell will be less or no bullshit about hidden motives like power or oil.

Oil For Food Scandal Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Anyone?

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

^^^ had nothing to do with UN peace keeping forces.

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

right on. fucking tired of every Yank yelling 'oil for food' whenever the UN is mentioned. Gotta say that they are pretty well mentally conditioned by anti-European and anti-UN propaganda though. 5 out of 5 star job from the US govt.

Besides, they're just whining about it because it means less oil for them to take from Iraq.

[Lorn]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

I'm with you on this Yao: if violence is needed, the intervening troops should be under UN mandate. Not that UN troops shoot better or drop bigger bombs or whatever, but there sure as hell will be less or no bullshit about hidden motives like power or oil.

I don't know about that. The UN is full of bullshit agenda's.

[Lorn]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

right on. fucking tired of every Yank yelling 'oil for food' whenever the UN is mentioned. Gotta say that they are pretty well mentally conditioned by anti-European and anti-UN propaganda though. 5 out of 5 star job from the US govt.

Besides, they're just whining about it because it means less oil for them to take from Iraq.

There is no question the US will and is making sure its oil is flowing. If Norway decided to stop selling oil to the US there is no doubt an invasion of Norway would happen.

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

lol, you might be right.

Actually, it's not just the oil story for me - it's the whole breaking down campaign of everything other than blunt violence that has been waged in recent times. It's like 9/11 is being used as a wildcard for shooting at everything that you don't like, and while only talking isn't the way to go either according to most Europeans, it should definitely be part of conflict resolution just as much as violence.

The oil-for-food scandal came in incredibly conveniently for the US who weren't happy at all sitting and waiting and doing nothing. The funny thing is though that despite the scandal Saddam was economically tied by hands and feet thanks to resolutions 1284 and 1441. Not that the situation was ideal, but it has become pretty obvious that he couldn't get shit materialized out there. As for the situation of the common man: I somehow don't really feel that it has become much safer now...the areas that are relatively safe now were probably areas that weren't of much interest to Saddam's regime anyway.

[88Mariner]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

right on. fucking tired of every Yank yelling 'oil for food' whenever the UN is mentioned. Gotta say that they are pretty well mentally conditioned by anti-European and anti-UN propaganda though. 5 out of 5 star job from the US govt.

Besides, they're just whining about it because it means less oil for them to take from Iraq.

While I believe the U.S. Government is more competent than the U.N., and even so by just small margins, I nonetheless all governments today are completely bullshit, untrustworthy, and are mere manegerial systems to rule over populations.

More assumptions about me. what's new?

By the way Yao, the UN is far more guilty of others things than just the Oil-For-Food Programme. I'd say most of these things can be classified under "INDIFFERENCE".


Carry on....

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

lol

No, I can't agree with that. It's rather the composition that is it's weakness: every country is all too aware of it's onw stakes in every conflict the UN is supposed to mingle itself in and resolve. Yu can hardly say they're indifferent, but if you say there's too many cooks in the kitchen, I'll be with you on that.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

While I believe the U.S. Government is more competent than the U.N.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

News article says they hanged Saddam's half-brother..... and that his head was ripped off in the process.

Holy crap. You think there's cell phone video of that?

[Lorn]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

I hope not.